華人教會父母的「口不對心」

[wonggk]

從這裏分出來的問題﹕

http://s-h-c.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10471


Even if you are a real big name in your field, you may still be outcasted if you don't follow the official party-line of a Chinese church.

My friend and fellowship brother (who himself is a real big name space scientist) shared this story with me just last night:

One of his high school classmate, who is now a chair-professor and former dept. head in Harvard, had to leave his Chinese church in Boston because he did not vote Republican!


That's true. If you graduate from and teach at Harvard and if you are as socially conservative as they are, then you are going to be put on the pedestal. They'd think: "Wow. This guy is so smart and yet so religious." But if you dare to depart from the official line even in the least bit, then they'd say: "See. We told you. What good can come out of Harvard but liberals?"

華人教會做保守派的應聲蟲，大批大學中的「自由主義」，但是，有沒有人見過華人教會的父母會不讓兒女去 Ivy League 大學而去那些「基督教大學」？

在加州，Berkeley 是他們眼中的所多瑪，但是我就只見得多教會中的父母為了兒女入了UC Berkeley 而歡天喜地，或者因為入不到而大失所望，卻從來未見過有人有UC Berkeley 不讀而去讀 Biola，Azusa Pacific 等所謂「基督教大學」，反而白人中我見過父母一開始就說不讓子女去「世俗大學」的，起馬他們是言行一致。

[yanlaptak]

關於口不對心，我想起月前讀到New Yorker（忘了是那一期）的一篇文章，說某社會學家（忘了是那一位）研究這個現象：當面對自己未成年的孩子未婚懷孕，自認信仰福音派的家長，只要孩子選擇把嬰兒生下來，（我猜，還有認錯，）就沒事了。而自由派，當知道自己未成年的孩子未婚懷孕，就很失措了。

我不知道美國的情況是不是這樣，也不了解這調研的結果，但會心一笑的是，人呢，總未必能百分百心話如一。

[nkcwong]

從這裏分出來的問題﹕

http://s-h-c.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10471


華人教會做保守派的應聲蟲，大批大學中的「自由主義」，但是，有沒有人見過華人教會的父母會不讓兒女去 Ivy League 大學而去那些「基督教大學」？

在加州，Berkeley 是他們眼中的所多瑪，但是我就只見得多教會中的父母為了兒女入了UC Berkeley 而歡天喜地，或者因為入不到而大失所望，卻從來未見過有人有UC Berkeley 不讀而去讀 Biola，Azusa Pacific 等所謂「基督教大學」，反而白人中我見過父母一開始就說不讓子女去「世俗大學」的，起馬他們是言行一致。

不也是depends on讀什麼嗎？入UC Berkeley讀工程可多麼放心，但women 或gender studies，相信保守派的華人父母也不會願意吧--他們只需隨便翻開一本坊間這類的書籍便會嚇得魂不附體了。

[wonggk]

不也是depends on讀什麼嗎？入UC Berkeley讀工程可多麼放心，但women 或gender studies，相信保守派的華人父母也不會願意吧--他們只需隨便翻開一本坊間這類的書籍便會嚇得魂不附體了。

It is not the school but the subject. Most Chinese-American parents would rather have their kids study engineering at a 3rd-tier state school, rather than Women Studies (or Asian Study, or Philosophy etc.) in an Ivy League school.

[horace]

不也是depends on讀什麼嗎？入UC Berkeley讀工程可多麼放心，但women 或gender studies，相信保守派的華人父母也不會願意吧--他們只需隨便翻開一本坊間這類的書籍便會嚇得魂不附體了。

不要說保守派華人父母了﹐我那個不信教的母親﹐聽見我走去讀哲學﹐都哦我不如讀些有用的科目喇。我已經讀完工程碩士﹐full-time做工搵錢﹐只不過是part-time讀都一樣比人哦。我話又不是唔做工去讀﹐只不過當興趣班咁讀﹐她才唔理我。

[clement]

不要說保守派華人父母了﹐我那個不信教的母親﹐聽見我走去讀哲學﹐都哦我不如讀些有用的科目喇。

我已經讀完工程碩士﹐full-time做工搵錢﹐只不過是part-time讀都一樣比人哦。我話又不是唔做工去讀﹐只不過當興趣班咁讀﹐她才唔理我。

少少興趣自由都無，真係會好悶......

[clement]

我會想，可能的話，讓將來的兒女（若有）自由選擇要讀的學科，給予支持，哪怕是最不賺錢的學科。
　
不過，這也要看資質而定。假定他很喜歡歷史，但其實並非讀史的材料，則我寧可他去讀些賺錢的學科，起碼餓不死他。有心無力，有興趣但很不足，就算勉強讀完書，完成學業，也不見得能夠在未來有所發揮。我也不是完美精英主義，但因為文科世界也有汰弱留強（當然還有人際關係問題），條件差得多，勉強還是辛苦的－－如果他無論如何最終還是願意勇敢承擔，也唯有支持吧。
　
　
　
　
　

[chestnut tree]

我會想，可能的話，讓將來的兒女（若有）自由選擇要讀的學科，給予支持，哪怕是最不賺錢的學科。

努力喔，爸媽都是唸哲學，孩子很可能也會成為哲學家呢。:D

[clement]

其實也不一定的。我相信，每人都有很多潛能，由於環境因素，可能選擇發揮了某些方面。

其實我也很喜歡音樂，喜歡語言，喜歡圍棋.......

生個大國手出來也不錯。:em5:


不過，賴品超教授曾提過，有些神學人三代都是神學家的，彷彿是一個「家族生意」。
　

[nkcwong]

我會想，可能的話，讓將來的兒女（若有）自由選擇要讀的學科，給予支持，哪怕是最不賺錢的學科。
　
不過，這也要看資質而定。假定他很喜歡歷史，但其實並非讀史的材料，則我寧可他去讀些賺錢的學科，起碼餓不死他。有心無力，有興趣但很不足，就算勉強讀完書，完成學業，也不見得能夠在未來有所發揮。我也不是完美精英主義，但因為文科世界也有汰弱留強（當然還有人際關係問題），條件差得多，勉強還是辛苦的－－如果他無論如何最終還是願意勇敢承擔，也唯有支持吧。


　

也要看處身那個社會及個人的expectation。就算只是mediocre talent，在美國社會，歷史博士畢業也可以在community college教。若勢必要做研究否則不罷休，那麼可能真的沒有出路了。當然，美國社會的制度較完善，亦容許高度創意，也許歷史博士畢業，加上其他專業知識，出路未必會很差的，比如讀museum science之類或拿個library science在國立圖書管做，若做得出色，說不定可以做一些有規模的圖書館館長，也不錯吧。在香港或國內，出路可能就會較狹窄了。

其實現在讀理工科也不一定好玩的，有朋友十多年前讀電腦programming，現在由於外判（到印度等地）及全球競爭，經常都要update自己，培訓再培訓，做到三更半夜，經常開OT。但讀歷史在community college教教書只是例行公事而已，沒有必要經常update。

[nkcwong]

也許我已經非常西化了，兒子將來要讀什麼，由他決定。我會鼓勵他（使用他的創意）make the best of his life。當然，若讀gender studies之類，我會有些擔心。雖然gender studies裡面有些觀點我同意，但有些實在難以認同。

我當然想他讀哲學法律政治學之類，最好他能進Yale的法律系，能步駱家輝後塵（雖然駱不是Yale法律系而是政治系畢業的），有機會從政。但若他想讀自然科學，工程或物理學或生物科學之類，這是他的選擇，雖然我對這方面完全沒有興趣。

[nkcwong]

今時今日長大的一代，可以有很多機會發揮，其中一個原因是教育普及了--不像我離開香港的時候，加上這一代的父母沒有上一代對代兒女這麼「家長式」，來自家庭的壓力普遍少些，所以客觀環境相對來講是好得多。

跟我們這代留學要在發電廠幹活的不同，根本沒有家庭條件，也不想我讀什麼哲學，我們這代可能對環境限制的觸覺比較敏銳。年紀也大了，像Aristotle在Rhetoric講的，恐怕或多或少是我（們）這代人的寫照﹕


The character of Elderly Men -- men who are past their prime -- may be said to be formed for the most part of elements that are the contrary of all these. They have lived many years; they have often been taken in, and often made mistakes; and life on the whole is a bad business. The result is that they are sure about nothing and under-do everything. They "think," but they never "know"; and because of their hesitation they always add a "possibly" or a "perhaps," putting everything this way and nothing positively. They are cynical; that is, they tend to put the worse construction on everything. Further, their experience makes them distrustful and therefore suspicious of evil. Consequently they neither love warmly nor hate bitterly, but following the hint of Bias they love as though they will some day hate and hate as though they will some day love. They are small-minded, because they have been humbled by life: their desires are set upon nothing more exalted or unusual than what will help them to keep alive. They are not generous, because money is one of the things they must have, and at the same time their experience has taught them how hard it is to get and how easy to lose. They are cowardly, and are always anticipating danger; unlike that of the young, who are warm-blooded, their temperament is chilly; old age has paved the way for cowardice; fear is, in fact, a form of chill. They love life; and all the more when their last day has come, because the object of all desire is something we have not got, and also because we desire most strongly that which we need most urgently. They are too fond of themselves; this is one form that small-mindedness takes. Because of this, they guide their lives too much by considerations of what is useful and too little by what is noble -- [1390a] for the useful is what is good for oneself, and the noble what is good absolutely. They are not shy, but shameless rather; caring less for what is noble than for what is useful, they feel contempt for what people may think of them. They lack confidence in the future; partly through experience -- for most things go wrong, or anyhow turn out worse than one expects; and partly because of their cowardice. They live by memory rather than by hope; for what is left to them of life is but little as compared with the long past; and hope is of the future, memory of the past. This, again, is the cause of their loquacity; they are continually talking of the past, because they enjoy remembering it. Their fits of anger are sudden but feeble. Their sensual passions have either altogether gone or have lost their vigour: consequently they do not feel their passions much, and their actions are inspired less by what they do feel than by the love of gain. Hence men at this time of life are often supposed to have a self-controlled character; the fact is that their passions have slackened, and they are slaves to the love of gain. They guide their lives by reasoning more than by moral feeling; reasoning being directed to utility and moral feeling to moral goodness. If they wrong others, they mean to injure them, not to insult them. Old men may feel pity, as well as young men, but not for the same reason. Young men feel it out of kindness; old men out of weakness, imagining that anything that befalls any one else might easily happen to them, which, as we saw, is a thought that excites pity. Hence they are querulous, and not disposed to jesting or laughter -- the love of laughter being the very opposite of querulousness.

http://www2.iastate.edu/~honeyl/Rhetoric/rhet2-13.html#1390a

[yanlaptak]

老實講，「少歲詩書成自誤」，已屆中年，還要終日為衣食擔心；誰不想生活舒坦些？那個父母不想自己孩子少些艱難？

哲學，神學，作為嗜好，當然好，但要藉此維生，就不得不進學院或教會，那又不得不接受那些機構的限制。況且，學問，尤其是這些學問，吹水（有時甚至是bullshit）的成份高，於人無益，於已無助。去思前想後，還是學醫我好，至少真的能醫好一些病。

接觸哲學神學越深，越感到這些東西看似智慧，實情吹水，就越發明白科學，技術（分析哲學）踏實些。

[clement]

老實講，「少歲詩書成自誤」，已屆中年，還要終日為衣食擔心；誰不想生活舒坦些？那個父母不想自己孩子少些艱難？

哲學，神學，作為嗜好，當然好，但要藉此維生，就不得不進學院或教會，那又不得不接受那些機構的限制。況且，學問，尤其是這些學問，吹水（有時甚至是bullshit）的成份高，於人無益，於已無助。去思前想後，還是學醫我好，至少真的能醫好一些病。

接觸哲學神學越深，越感到這些東西看似智慧，實情吹水，就越發明白科學，技術（分析哲學）踏實些。

身邊認識一些朋友，在實利、科學、技術之後，回過頭來詩書、吹水、或是智慧一番。但這樣的話，有時越學越發現學海或藝術無涯，除了否定學海、藝術本身，難免只能嗟嘆，（例如語言或者藝術感觸）太晚學了，年少沒有用功夫打好基礎。針有時無兩頭利。
　　
我寧可說，虛實相補。有時禪得太多太濫，概念模糊，是非顛倒，確實無助於思，確實吹水；一切都要求太死太實，又少了清虛的智慧。
　
信念、理念、價值，這些東西肯定離開了實證的範圍，但到底是智慧還是吹水，則不能單憑是否實證來決定。認為只有死物的經驗是真實，反而主體的經驗（生死愛慾，對價值、信念、理想追求，對真善美的愛惡）是虛妄，這種想法太極端了。
　　
回到原來的問題：我說過，「假定他很喜歡歷史，但其實並非讀史的材料，則我寧可他去讀些賺錢的學科，起碼餓不死他」，其實也有類似的意思，如果他的心態只是玩玩下，用一種風花雪月吹水認o力（="裝小聰明"）的心態來搞些「不實用」學問，不踏實不認真倒不如不搞。　
　　
　　
　　
　　
　　

[維記wei_kei]

我個人則在思考，到底我們可容讓孩子犯錯的可能性有多少？各位不少意見高明且成熟，然而很多都是在人生實戰後或成或敗的反省結果，也是在一定的trial and error後不斷修正的看法。所以提供最好的給孩子然是無可置疑的，然而另一方面，路，還是她／他們自己走的，我認為我們只能提供我們認為最好的給她／他們後，就是讓她／他們自己學習選擇及走自己的路，我們極其量只是在適時提供意見，和成為她／他們在人生面對失意及低谷時的竭息處和避難所，然後讓她／他們繼續上路。

在相當程度上，我們的上一輩都是這樣待我們的，為我們提供資源及空間。所以我對現時這一代以保障下一代為名的理由反對這反對，相當不以為然。

[clement]

剛寫了一篇：《哲學家的任務是什麼》:D
http://s-h-c.org/forum/showthread.php?p=62061#post62061　　



哲學：生產概念；哲學工作者：？？

德勒茲說過，哲學的任務是生產概念。我覺得這很有意思。....................在我看來，哲學工作者的任務可要廣闊得多。哲學家生產完概念..............是需要別人來解話的，用以溝通哲學家藝術家與普通用家。哲學工作者就好像話評人一樣，主要目的是生產優質的論著（書寫的書本，口講的講演），將哲學家的概念或者藝術家的傑作解釋明白。根據某些詮釋學大師分析，概念或者傑作本身有所不能窮盡的意蘊，這樣更好，每一代的哲學工作者、文學工作者、藝術工作者都有任務去做，不用收工。
　　
若是這樣，好的哲學工作者，就是教好自己的書和寫好自己的研究著作。兩樣工作都做不好，就無法滿足哲學工作者的要求了。也許可以保留名分，改變工作性質：當學生和讀者的「生命同行者」，這也很有意思。　
　　
　　

[tkhwong2005]

我個人則在思考，到底我們可容讓孩子犯錯的可能性有多少？各位不少意見高明且成熟，然而很多都是在人生實戰後或成或敗的反省結果，也是在一定的trial and error後不斷修正的看法。所以提供最好的給孩子然是無可置疑的，然而另一方面，路，還是她／他們自己走的，我認為我們只能提供我們認為最好的給她／他們後，就是讓她／他們自己學習選擇及走自己的路，我們極其量只是在適時提供意見，和成為她／他們在人生面對失意及低谷時的竭息處和避難所，然後讓她／他們繼續上路。

在相當程度上，我們的上一輩都是這樣待我們的，為我們提供資源及空間。所以我對現時這一代以保障下一代為名的理由反對這反對，相當不以為然。

Indeed, I agree what you have said. How much space we allow our next generations to explore is an vaild question. Also, another issue is that the role of mentoring in the formation of one soul. As I reflected my youthful days (I am not that old, yet I am reaching the point of tasting the mid-life), I was blessed by my parents: They had little education yet they allowed me to choose my path. Originally, My father dreamed that I would be a medical doctor. Yet, as I decided to changed my major from Chemistry to Sociology & Philosophy, he allowed me to make such change (No opposition is already a blessing, in my opinion). Then, I studied theology. As soon as they knew it, my parents allowed me to take this path and saying that they already predicted I would make that move when I decided changed my major. In anyway, I was so thankful for allowing me to make this change and doing what I am called and loved to do: ministering a church.

At the same time, there were Catholic professors and some pastors encouraged me to find the way that God wanted me to become. I was blessed!

Now, as a person was blessed by others who created space for me to grow, how am I going to take up their footsteps and encourage others to dream in Christ is my part.

I know that many next generation Chinese Christians were lost in their purpose and direction of life. Dear ladies and gentlemen, I think it is our duties to help them to find their ways. Do you agree?:)

[蒲先生]

我個人則在思考，到底我們可容讓孩子犯錯的可能性有多少？各位不少意見高明且成熟，然而很多都是在人生實戰後或成或敗的反省結果，也是在一定的trial and error後不斷修正的看法。所以提供最好的給孩子然是無可置疑的，然而另一方面，路，還是她／他們自己走的，我認為我們只能提供我們認為最好的給她／他們後，就是讓她／他們自己學習選擇及走自己的路，我們極其量只是在適時提供意見，和成為她／他們在人生面對失意及低谷時的竭息處和避難所，然後讓她／他們繼續上路。

在相當程度上，我們的上一輩都是這樣待我們的，為我們提供資源及空間。所以我對現時這一代以保障下一代為名的理由反對這反對，相當不以為然。


睇番呢篇舊野......同意.....我見過有對天主教夫婦話宗教都任由兒女選擇.......不置可否.......liberal得狠........可能係荷蘭人的緣故........但如果仔女選擇做道德塔利班佢地應該都頂唔順.....

中國 人過往百零年比較現實........(會唔會同愛互相吹捧等同屬文化深層氣質則有待研究).......信埋教就更大拉扯.......一方面要超現實 (輕視名利).......一方面又極其現實 (重名利)........心口一致當更得尊重.......信仰理應令人心口更一致.......可惜來到中國人裏......有時會加重呢種罪性........令人婉惜........