Ted Haggard "completely heterosexual"

[Daniel_Cheung]

之前那位下台的福音派領袖現在有新消息：

Ousted Pastor ?Completely Heterosexual? (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/07/us/07haggard.html?_r=1&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fH%2fHaggard%2cTed&oref=slogin)

[以利達]

唔錯bor~ 3個星期搞掂, 我估最開心的是佢老婆 :)

希望佢不要再搞婚外性(同性/異性) 啦!! :)

男人就係咁 賤?!

[clement]

唔錯bor~ 3個星期搞掂, 我估最開心的是佢老婆 :)

希望佢不要再搞婚外性(同性/異性) 啦!! :)

男人就係咁 賤?!

我認為，不管你有甚麼動機，有心或無意，你第三句話其實是無關的、不必要的，而且是以偏概全的，更加會絆倒人，讓人以為，既然男人如此，那麼做甚麼都是對的（錯誤從實然推出應然）。雖然這裡是「露天茶座」，但我也認為需要作出一點回應。

況且，慾、淫和賤是三回事情。慾是指一種情慾意向的狀況，比較中性；淫是貪色﹑放蕩的，這些貪念、放縱的行為令人受情慾所綑綁（這裏不涉及一種道德判斷，但指出一種病態傾向，無法控制好自己）；賤是人格低下（涉及道德判斷）。如果一個人無法控制自己情慾，受其捆綁，甚至不斷作下壞事，損人不利己，不負責任，甚至顛倒是非，欺騙意圖獲得私利，不懂懊悔，這才是賤。

http://140.111.34.46/cgi-bin/dict/GetContent.cgi?Database=dict&DocNum=150285&GraphicWord=yes&QueryString=淫

http://140.111.34.46/cgi-bin/dict/GetContent.cgi?Database=dict&DocNum=84229&GraphicWord=yes&QueryString=賤

[蒲先生]

其實阿ted (容我如此暱稱) 可以係幻想按摩師係女人....好似男囚犯互相按摩咁.....其實人既sexuality可以好具彈性....係某些場合因緣際會因時制宜靈活應變......improverise好緊要......並唔係得同性異性雙性三種涇渭分明.....而且性行為可以包含其他非性慾動機和因素.....如美學或時尚.......好似偉大吟遊詩人王爾德和賈寶玉咁.....

human sexuality真係豐富神祕得很呢.....接受自己和別人豐富神祕一面才健康呢.....

:sleepy:

[以利達]

其實阿ted (容我如此暱稱) 可以係幻想按摩師係女人....好似男囚犯互相按摩咁.....其實人既sexuality可以好具彈性....係某些場合因緣際會因時制宜靈活應變......improverise好緊要......並唔係得同性異性雙性三種涇渭分明.....而且性行為可以包含其他非性慾動機和因素.....如美學或時尚.......好似偉大吟遊詩人王爾德和賈寶玉咁.....

human sexuality真係豐富神祕得很呢.....接受自己和別人豐富神祕一面才健康呢.....

:sleepy:

或者可以叫 新造的人 請 ted ted 來講見證啦!

[Daniel_Cheung]

Ted Haggard 現在是全職學生，他寫了一封公開的電郵要求前教會的人有金錢上的資助。但教會的長老覺得未知會他們就發這信，有點不對。報導結尾大概有點諷刺，說 Ted Haggard 其實應該有很多錢的，為甚麼還不夠兩年的使用？
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294538,00.html

[alexyu]

University of Phoenix is a "commerical" for-profit university, and the tuition is high, of course. If he can attend a public university, he may not need support at all.

[Daniel_Cheung]

University of Phoenix is a "commerical" for-profit university, and the tuition is high, of course. If he can attend a public university, he may not need support at all.

我無意故意針對 Haggard ，但是，從事實上看，的確有令人覺得難以理解之處。余兄向以「用事實作判斷」見稱，今次何出此言？

新聞：
Haggard received a salary of $115,000 for the 10 months he worked in 2006 and an $85,000 anniversary bonus before the scandal broke, The Gazette reported. Haggard's severance package included a year's salary of $138,000, and he collects royalties on his book titles, the newspaper reported.

留意，這裡未提及 Haggard 過往的積蓄。假若他在 2000 - 2005 年的 salary 平均每年 $80,000 ，他有 10% 積蓄，都已有 $40,000 。

U of Phoenix (http://www.phoenix.edu/tuition_and_financial_options/tuition_and_fees.aspx)：
How our costs compare.

While the cost of attending a college today can top $20,000 a year at many schools, the cost of attending University of Phoenix is much less than that amount. At University of Phoenix, you can complete your degree much sooner than at other universities, which means you can realize the return on your investment earlier as well.

[alexyu]

I don't mean he really needs support to attend U. of Phoenix. What I mean is: Rather than asking for support, why didn't he go for a less expensive route. The tuition of U. of Phoenix for graduate study is about $612 per credit. At ASU, that is $376. The range is close in other state universities. I attended U. of Oklahoma and ASU. In both sites, I didn't need any external support and survive on my GA salary.

[wonggk]

美國大部分 professional degree 的 graduate student 都是借錢加做 part time 完成學業的，我讀醫學院時就借了近十萬元和寫了一個 summer 的 program。為什麼普通學生要為自己的學業負責，他卻夠膽去要人支持？

這人臉皮之厚，實在令人震驚。

[nkcwong]

I don't mean he really needs support to attend U. of Phoenix. What I mean is: Rather than asking for support, why didn't he go for a less expensive route. The tuition of U. of Phoenix for graduate study is about $612 per credit. At ASU, that is $376. The range is close in other state universities. I attended U. of Oklahoma and ASU. In both sites, I didn't need any external support and survive on my GA salary.

若Haggard不是讀online課程，像其他traditional students一樣到ASU或U of Oklahoma上課的話，只會惹來傳媒窮追不捨，甚至其他學生恥笑或白眼。

不過，如果他這個人真的要人資助讀書，顯示他一往的lifestyle很奢靡。房子的市價估計為700，000萬，賣掉一半錢都夠兩個兒子到Ivy League學校唸書了！（Ivy League 學校學費每年可高達50，000美元。） Anyway，這人真的臉皮夠厚！

[wonggk]

留意，這裡未提及 Haggard 過往的積蓄。假若他在 2000 - 2005 年的 salary 平均每年 $80,000 ，他有 10% 積蓄，都已有 $40,000 。



美國人的 savings rate 近乎零。Financial planner 也只教人要有六個月的生活費用在手，他沒有錢不奇。

[wonggk]

若Haggard不是讀online課程，像其他traditional students一樣到ASU或U of Oklahoma上課的話，只會惹來傳媒窮追不捨，甚至其他學生恥笑或白眼。



他或者大名鼎鼎，不過認得他的人不會太多，去法庭改個名或者向學校申請用假名，再留一些鬚或者改變下髮形就得了。

有那麼多基督教大學的 Counseling 不去讀，去讀者 U of Phoenix？

（U of Phoenix 是美國最大的牟利大學，不是說它的學術水準一定不好，它的教學據說不錯的，因為教授都不是研究第一，不理學生那類，而牟利大學教得不好就一定關門。但是，它的 counseling 課程就一定不會教什麼 Bibilcal base 或者 Christian foundation 吧？）

[Daniel_Cheung]

留意，這裡未提及 Haggard 過往的積蓄。假若他在 2000 - 2005 年的 salary 平均每年 $80,000 ，他有 10% 積蓄，都已有 $40,000 。

U of Phoenix (http://www.phoenix.edu/tuition_and_financial_options/tuition_and_fees.aspx)：

美國人的 savings rate 近乎零。Financial planner 也只教人要有六個月的生活費用在手，他沒有錢不奇。

saving rate 近乎零，我也知道。或許我應該說，假如他那幾年的 salary 平均每年 $80,000 ，總不會花光吧，他那類工作，有時有錢都沒時間去花。那麼，假定他剩下約 10% ......

[alexyu]

Fuller has a school of psychology that is accredited by American Psychological Association. It has clincial and a few other counselling psychology programs. The most important point is: these programs integate Christian theology and psychology. As a former pastor, he can even get some kind of financial aid. In all levels, Fuller is still much less expensive than U. of Phoenix.

School of Psychology
500-level (MS) 331.00

800-level (Clinical PsyD, PhD) 479.00

800-level (Marriage/Family PhD) 479.00

I think his close friends should tell him about other options.

[Daniel_Cheung]

負責監督 Haggard 改善的四位人物澄清，Haggard 不會（不能）再參與事奉，只能找非教會的工作。最奇怪的是， Haggard 在信中說，奉獻收條可向某機構索取，但那機構的負責人完全不知情。
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/augustweb-only/135-44.0.html

[pathos]

負責監督 Haggard 改善的四位人物澄清，Haggard 不會（不能）再參與事奉，只能找非教會的工作。最奇怪的是， Haggard 在信中說，奉獻收條可向某機構索取，但那機構的負責人完全不知情。
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/augustweb-only/135-44.0.html

腦袋閃過一個猜測﹕

在Haggard 的潛意識裡頭﹐他的確是想或得到異想開始一個[新]的事工。
那么工人得工價就是理所當然囉:D

[The letter implied that he would be doing ministry there, but the overseer's statement said Haggard will not be moving in or working with the Dream Center.]

這這個作法應該不是首例吧﹖之前一些電視佈道家不也咸魚翻身嗎﹖只要他有辦法使到一些機構或基督徒相信他的悔改及他的新召命﹐他就能重出江湖了。

我猜測他可能在兩三年內有辦法再冒起來﹐:cool:

[wonggk]

:confused: :confused:

這個故事的情節發展得比任何肥皂劇更離奇。新聞現在說他要人寄捐款的組織，主辦者是個已經兩次被定罪的性侵犯罪犯。Ted Hagger 說他會去 Phoenix Dream Center 工作，但是這個機構卻說沒有這個回事。

有人懷疑那封籌款信是假的，但是幫助 Ted Hagger 「回轉」的四個 Overseers 星期日才見過他，告訴他不能籌款和事奉，那麼這個信又不似是假的了。一「衰」就「衰」到這麼「賤」？連這種九流江湖騙子的手段也用到？

[Daniel_Cheung]

新進展：

Exited - Ted Haggard, former president of the National Association of Evangelicals and pastor of New Life Church in Colorado Springs, from his spiritual restoration program. Haggard was dismissed from New Life for sexual immorality in November 2006. New Life's trustees said in a statement that Haggard's restoration remained incomplete and that he should not return to vocational ministry. According to the statement, Haggard will continue an accountability relationship with pastor Tommy Barnett of Phoenix First Assembly of God in Arizona.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/april/8.14.html

有點好奇，究竟那所謂 restoration 是甚麼意思？如何量度？令他再沒有同性幻想？令他不敢越軌？

[Daniel_Cheung]

新聞區裡貼出了這消息，但由於很多會員都沒有去那裡看的習慣，所以我重貼在這裡：

Haggard back at Springs home
Minister answers doorbell, declines to talk to media
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jun/23/haggard-back-at-springs-home/

Ted Haggard, the disgraced founder of New Life Church, is back in Colorado Springs.

He's not saying why - at least not to members of the press.

"I can't talk to you. I am forbidden from talking to the media," Haggard said Saturday evening after answering the doorbell at his home on Old Ranch Road in north Colorado Springs.

He declined to elaborate...

[Daniel_Cheung]

Ted Haggard's newest apologies for sexual sin
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/religion/post/2008/11/58471734/1

Remember the disgraced Rev. Ted Haggard, booted from his pulpit at his Colorado megachurch and his post as president of the National Association of Evangelicals when it was revealed he was sharing sex and crystal meth with a male prostitute?...

Ted Haggard Breaks His Silence
Haggard Claims He Had Sexual Experience With Man at 7 Years Old
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=6235564&page=1

Ted Haggard, the disgraced former evangelical leader, recently broke his silence on the second anniversary of the scandal that brought him down.

He gave a pair of sermons at a small church in Illinois where the pastor is an old friend of his...

[Daniel_Cheung]

Ted Haggard 拍片講述自己的經歷，按這裡的描述，似乎他在抱怨他的教會不接納他。
http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/news/blog-090119.html

[nkcwong]

Ted Haggard 拍片講述自己的經歷，按這裡的描述，似乎他在抱怨他的教會不接納他。
http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/news/blog-090119.html

我懷疑是HBO及他互相利用作為賺錢的機會。（他說他現在賣保險不是很成功。）

[Daniel_Cheung]

我不想捲入甚麼意識形態（支持／反對同性戀、批判教會建制云云），但我比較關注他的前教會是否真的不接納他，令他覺得好像被趕入窮巷，選擇了現在這方式幹活。在華人教會，我們不是未經歷過或眼見過這類情況，例如一位好端端的信徒一旦被發現與未信的人拍拖，或離了婚，就會被排擠。

[Daniel_Cheung]

Disgraced pastor faces more gay sex accusations
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090124/ap_on_re/rel_haggard_new_allegations

...Brady Boyd, who succeeded Haggard as senior pastor of the 10,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs, told The Associated Press that the man came forward to church officials in late 2006 shortly after a Denver male prostitute claimed to have had a three-year cash-for-sex relationship with Haggard.

Boyd said an "overwhelming pool of evidence" pointed to an "inappropriate, consensual sexual relationship" that "went on for a long period of time ... it wasn't a one-time act." Boyd said the man was in his early 20s at the time. He said he was certain the man was of legal age when it began.

Reached Friday night, Haggard declined to comment and said all interviews would have to be arranged through a publicist for HBO, which is airing a documentary about him this month....

[Daniel_Cheung]

Disgraced pastor faces more gay sex accusations
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090124/ap_on_re/rel_haggard_new_allegations

...Brady Boyd, who succeeded Haggard as senior pastor of the 10,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs, told The Associated Press that the man came forward to church officials in late 2006 shortly after a Denver male prostitute claimed to have had a three-year cash-for-sex relationship with Haggard.

Boyd said an "overwhelming pool of evidence" pointed to an "inappropriate, consensual sexual relationship" that "went on for a long period of time ... it wasn't a one-time act." Boyd said the man was in his early 20s at the time. He said he was certain the man was of legal age when it began.

Reached Friday night, Haggard declined to comment and said all interviews would have to be arranged through a publicist for HBO, which is airing a documentary about him this month....

Haggard 回應這指控：

Haggard: 'Inappropriate' relationship not physical
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090127/ap_on_re_us/haggard_new_allegations

Fallen evangelical pastor Ted Haggard says he had an "inappropriate relationship" with a young male church volunteer, but it did not involve physical contact....

[Daniel_Cheung]

Wife says Haggard told her of struggles years ago
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090128/ap_on_re_us/rel_haggard_s_wife

Former evangelical pastor Ted Haggard's wife says she knew about his struggles with same-sex attraction for years and felt he was "winning the battle" before a scandal involving a male prostitute triggered his downfall in late 2006.

Gayle Haggard makes the remarks in an appearance with her husband on "The Oprah Winfrey Show" to air Wednesday. She said she was shocked when Haggard first told her the truth about the allegations against him....

However, Gayle Haggard also said her husband told her early in their 30-year marriage that he "struggled with some thoughts."...

[Daniel_Cheung]

Ted Haggard's Facebook
A former New Life Church staffer watches the documentary.
Patton Dodd
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/104-32.0.html

Haggard 'Deserves What He Got'
So says Alexandra Pelosi, whose documentary about Haggard airs on HBO this week. But she also sees a man who has worked through his pain - thanks to the Bible.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/104-31.0.html

[Daniel_Cheung]

Holy Laughter
Remembering Haggard's sin -- and ours.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/104-53.0.html


...It is understandable that such churches -- and sadly, there are hundreds of them -- want to forget, as quickly as possible, the notorious sin and the scandalous pastor who brought shame to it. And that such churches would strive valiantly to tell itself and the world, "We're not like that. Really. That doesn't represent us. We're much better than that." That it would do its best to put the episode behind itself and move on.

But woe to the church that does that. We should wonder, in fact, about any Christian anywhere who does not look at Ted Haggard and say, "Oh yeah, I could have done that," or more honestly, "To my deep shame, been there, done something very much like that." Instead of thinking of Haggard and his ilk as ugly exceptions to our general moral uprightness, we should remember that we are part of his ilk....

[Daniel_Cheung]

Disgraced pastor, wife to appear on TV show
http://s-h-c.org/forum/showthread.php?p=66066#post66066

[Daniel_Cheung]

Haggard 上了清談節目 Oprah 講自己的人生如何破碎。《今日基督教》有社論討論這事。但我總覺得那文章的觀點有點抽離，雖然它的題目是人人都當自省。我認為仍然存在的那抽離感應該有以下兩方面。一，該文太單獨地談 Haggard ，彷彿只有他才那麼失敗。這個，應該是該文的無心之失，我覺得可以接受的；而且，也不便多談其他同道的失敗。

然而，第二方面我就不太接受了。該文的觀點是， Haggard 很可憐，人生很 disordered ，"in Haggard's case, a dysfunctional childhood helped shape disordered love." 所以呢，我們基督徒要努力 "fortify" 我們的生活和家庭，那就能避免了。首先，事實上可能真有人有同性戀傾向而不是因為破碎家庭的，這一點，很可惜的，《今日基督教》這社論竟不能承認。接著，聖經中的救恩和成聖，按我理解，應該是神使軟弱的人剛強，化腐朽為神奇，而不是人（或教會）努力維護大量社會秩序，道德秩序，以求萬事井井有條，那就不會有人那麼容易越雷池半步。

換言之，該社論的所謂自省，是不要墮落成那種「犯規人士」，整個論述彷彿把他們圈在井然有條的美麗世界之外，把他們看為失落可憐的人，一群無法理解不可理諭的他者，彷彿他們的罪特別的嚴重，他們的本性特別的差，卻看不見神的恩典可以與這些人同在，可以轉化他們。他們其實就是我們，沒有他和我的分別。講得出這句，才算是提出了人人都是罪人，都要自省，否則，只是把「我們」說成一群比較神聖的人，在可憐那些失落了的罪人。

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/april/20.20.html

[Daniel_Cheung]

Fallen pastor Ted Haggard to again lead worship
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091105/ap_on_re_us/us_disgraced_pastor_starting_over

Ted Haggard, who was dismissed from the megachurch he founded after a man alleged a cash-for-sex relationship with him, plans to lead people in worship again....

[Daniel_Cheung]

順便一提，近日《時代論壇》有一文章談討美國一位著名講員的跌倒，雖然與同性戀無關，但也是明星級人物在性愛上失腳。
要謹慎自己和自己的教訓：從Catherine Rohr跌倒的反思 (http://christiantimes.org.hk/Common/Reader/News/ShowNews.jsp?Nid=56263&Pid=6&Version=0&Cid=150&Charset=big5_hkscs)
還有一篇回應：克服領袖的陰暗面　回應蔡少琪牧師〈Catherine Rohr跌倒的反思〉 (http://christiantimes.org.hk/Common/Reader/News/ShowNews.jsp?Nid=56331&Pid=6&Version=0&Cid=150&Charset=big5_hkscs)

[clement]

看來我們缺乏的，不只是思考貧窮的結構性，及其群體組織性的回應，更是思考跌倒的結構性。原來，不只社關的靈魂是孤獨的，連天路的靈魂也是孤獨的，我們太愛孤獨自省，究竟，福音派眾教會們想把群眾性和組織力留給甚麼使用？


不太明白古斌想說什麼。如果他想說的是，人的身體慾望畢竟無法因為個人心志而徹底克服，所以就算大德高僧也無法避免情色試探，無法避免跌倒，這我還可以理解。

但他並不是針對個人「謹慎」，而是針對「個人」謹慎。是什麼意思呢？難道動員群眾性和組織力就能夠解決個人層次上的幽暗面？人們做不見得光的事情，總是獨個兒的時候做的。要動員群眾性和組織力，我想到秘密警察，宗教警察。　:confused:
　
　　

[Daniel_Cheung]

不太明白古斌想說什麼。如果他想說的是，人的身體慾望畢竟無法因為個人心志而徹底克服，所以就算大德高僧也無法避免情色試探，無法避免跌倒，這我還可以理解。

但他並不是針對個人「謹慎」，而是針對「個人」謹慎。是什麼意思呢？難道動員群眾性和組織力就能夠解決個人層次上的幽暗面？人們做不見得光的事情，總是獨個兒的時候做的。要動員群眾性和組織力，我想到秘密警察，宗教警察。　:confused:
　
　　

我恐怕沒有很多人真明白他很多言論。我大概掌握到的是，他想強調基督教理想下的教會，其實應該比現在的教會有更好的互相守望，但怎樣守望才能兼顧尊重個體自主和私隱，卻是他沒有談及的。

[Daniel_Cheung]

Haggard surprised by attention on prayer meetings
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091110/ap_on_re_us/us_disgraced_pastor_starting_over

Former pastor Ted Haggard says his decision to hold prayer meetings in his Colorado Springs living room has attracted great interest from the media.

Haggard said Monday he will be holding a press conference before his first prayer meeting Thursday to accommodate requests from media outlets including The New York Times and CBS' "The Early Show." No press will be allowed inside the home, Haggard said, adding, "We don't want to be surrounded by paparazzi."

But he said the media is allowed to talk to people before and after the meeting....

[Daniel_Cheung]

Why Gayle Haggard Stayed
She tells CT why she remained married to Ted Haggard—even after he suggested that she divorce him.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/february/2.63.html

What if Ted picked up some sexually transmitted disease and infected me? Gayle Haggard wondered as she brushed her teeth one morning in November 2006. Hours before, a male escort had alleged that her husband, Ted Haggard, had paid him for sex and methamphetamine. Ted subsequently resigned as president of the National Association of Evangelicals and as lead pastor of New Life Church in Colorado Springs. CT online editor Sarah Pulliam Bailey spoke with Gayle about her book Why I Stayed: The Choices I Made in My Darkest Hour (Tyndale). ...

[Daniel_Cheung]

Ted Haggard to start new church in Colo. Springs
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100602/ap_on_re_us/us_disgraced_pastor

Former megachurch pastor Ted Haggard, who fell from grace amid a sex scandal, is starting a new church in Colorado Springs.

Haggard made the announcement Wednesday during a news conference at his home.

Incorporation papers for a new church were filed three weeks ago, he said. Haggard previously indicated that he and his wife incorporated the church for accounting purposes but predicted they would return to some type of ministry one day.

Haggard resigned as senior pastor of the 14,000-member New Life Church after a male prostitute alleged Haggard paid him for sex over three years....

[Daniel_Cheung]

Ted Haggard to start new church in Colo. Springs
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100603/ap_on_re_us/us_disgraced_pastor

...At his new church, Haggard said he will teach that God intended marriage to be a monogamous union of a man and a woman. But he said heterosexual marriage was just one ideal in a long list of things God wants people to do, including pray, be healthy and stay monogamous.

He also said the biblical ideals are sometimes hard to live up to.

"Earth is not heaven. And here on Earth, sexuality is very complex and very confusing," he said....

[Daniel_Cheung]

Haggard似乎與荷里活關係越來越密切。

Ted Haggard: From scandal, to ministry, to ‘Wife Swap’

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/under-god/post/ted-haggard-from-scandal-to-ministry-to-wife-swap/2011/09/21/gIQAlbYrlK_blog.html