歐洲首間全華語神學院

[Daniel_Cheung]

是在西班牙的，看基督新報的報導，http://www.gospelherald.com.hk/news/edu_234.htm

[horace]

移民了去外國﹐就應該融入當地主流﹐參加本地的教會嘛。還搞什麼華語神學院﹐搞小圈子華語教會﹐是不是想招惹歧視﹖

[if_chf24]

移民了去外國﹐就應該融入當地主流﹐參加本地的教會嘛。還搞什麼華語神學院﹐搞小圈子華語教會﹐是不是想招惹歧視﹖

I disagree. Ethnic minorities in Europe should have their rights to their own languages and cultures. Of course, if they wish to integrate, it is great. However, given the reality that an influx of Chinese immigrants from mainland China to Europe in the recent two decades, the need to train Chinese Christians in their mother tongue is an urgent need as experienced by the Chinese Churches here in Europe. We need people who can communicate the Good News to Chinese people here in Europe in a language that they can understand and appreciate. We have to understand the reality that many who are educated in English or other European languages may not be able to communicate effectively with the new Chinese immigrants who speak little European languages and only speak so when they have to, mainly in the Chinese restaurants to their customers.

I appreciate your high opinion of integration. Yet the situation is never clear cut, never just black and white in this kind of matter.

[wonggk]

移民了去外國﹐就應該融入當地主流﹐參加本地的教會嘛。還搞什麼華語神學院﹐搞小圈子華語教會﹐是不是想招惹歧視﹖

I disagree too. Attending church is much more than worshiping. Churches are often the only social support network. Local churches just don't have the cultural and social knowledge to serve immigrants.

There are also theological issues unique to immigrants. For example, prior to 1997, many U.S. Chinese churches had in-depth discussion on the role of Overseas Chineses Christians in serving China. While I may not agree with all of the their conclusions, this type of discussion is critical. Yet how can you expect an American church to have the vision, knowledge, and expertise to engage in this type of discussion.

How about just attending local seminary? Do we need a Chinese speaking seminary in Europe (or the U.S. -- there are several in the U.S., some of them are ATS accredited)? My feeling is that we want a seminary focusing on educating ethnic Chinese pastors, but not using Chinese as the teaching language.

My wife is a seminary student. We have been in the U.S. for 30 years and English is not a problem for us. But culturally the issues important to each ethnic group are just different. Many things discussed in a local seminary targeting Whites and Blacks are just not important to Chinese Americans.

On the other hand, I am strongly against teaching in Chinese overseas. Mastering the local language is critical, especially for ministers. They may well be the only connection between their congregation members and the community. If they can't even master the local langauage, how can he serve his members?

[if_chf24]

On the other hand, I am strongly against teaching in Chinese overseas. Mastering the local language is critical, especially for ministers. They may well be the only connection between their congregation members and the community. If they can't even master the local langauage, how can he serve his members?

However, mastering the local language to use it in daily life is one thing. To use it for theological studies is another thing.

Honestly, only second generation Chinese in countries like Spain or Sweden can really master the language well enough for tertiary studies in the local language. We in Europe urgently need ethnic Chinese pastors who can serve our congregations in the Continent. However, hardly ever you will find someone who can master the local language well enough to go and study in the local seminary or the Faculty of Divinity in the universities. Unlike in English-speaking countries where most first generation Chinese immigrants can somehow master the local language, the Continent is really different.

Once I met a pastor in a Chinese church in Amsterdam. He is a Dutch-born Chinese and is fluent in Dutch and Cantonese. But guess where did he receive his theological training? CGST in Hong Kong. His church sends him to HK to be trained so that he come back and serve.

In England, I have Hong Kong Chinese friends who prefer to worship, sing and pray in English. Because they receive most of their religious education in English and find the Chinese Bible difficult to understand. Even though they are highly educated, how can they serve the Chinese immigrants community?

To be fluent in a language is only the first step. To be able to theologise in that language is another thing. It has taken me quite a long time to accustom myself to church/Christian English, even though I had been fluent in English before I came to England.

Lastly, as we need seminaries in Europe to train ethnic Chinese pastors, the only common language for them is Chinese. Unlike in the US, there are so many languages in Europe, we cannot expect everyone to speak English or French or German. Ah, by the way, most Chinese theologians are not fluent in French or German or Spanish anyway.

[horace]

I can appreciate the social value of overseas Chinese church in helping the immigrants integrate with the mainstream, especial those offer xSL courses. But the problem here is opening a Chinese seminary, not just running a Chinese church.

Chinese speaking ministries trained in mainstream theology school should be good enough to serve the mass undereducated immigrants. They can't understand those complex theological arguments anyways, regardless whether it is preached in Chinese or English or French or Germany.

If some of them really want to learn some deeper theological thoughts. Then they should ask themselves, what is more important for the immigrants? Learn the mainstream's language or learn the Bible? Definitely the former cause is way more important than the later cause. Then they should spend their time learning the local language first before wasting time in Chinese seminary schools.

For those few can master both language and who really want to receive theological training in Chinese, just send them to HK or Taiwan. It is more cost effiective than running a Chinese seminary in Europe.

The question is, why someone would use Chinese for theological studies in Europe in the first place?

[wonggk]

In ministry, culture is critical. Those pastors educated in HK or Taiwan do not have the cultural background to minister effectively to immigrants. In the U.S., many Chinese churches run into major disaster when they hired a well-known pastor from Hong Kong. These pastors tried to bring their HK style to the U.S. and of course that's an excellent formular for failure!

On the other hand, local seminaries, because of the lack of understanding of ethnic Chinese culture, also leave many gaps unfilled. For example, inter-generation conflict and family issues are common among first generation Chinese families. While every family has its own problems, those among local families are just totally different from immigrant Chinese families. So having a seminary focusing on ethnic overseas Chinese is ideal (when the Chinese population reaches a critical mass)

But I have to disagree with if_chf24's comments regarding using Chinese as the teaching language. You can't first master a language and then go to study theology (or medicine, or law, or whatever). Studying in a language is part of mastering it.

Besides, why just pick out theology? Why not have a Chinese language medical school training doctors to just serve the Chinese? Why not run an MBA program in Chinese? When I started medical school, I too was not able to "medicalize" in English, and that's after living in the U.S. for 15 years, getting a PhD, and teaching for several years at three different U.S. universities. I had to learn simple things like how to describe "pain" so that I can communicate with others.

I agree that the lack of one unifying language in Europe (compared to English in the U.S.) creates a major challenge. But I would still pick English or Spanish over Chinese.

[if_chf24]

I appreciate your points, but I still think that their approach is a necessary step to equip the Chinese churches in Europe, no matter how unsatisfactory it is.

And it is equally unsatisfactory if we ask Chinese who live in the Continent to use English as the medium of instruction in the seminary.

Lastly, honestly speaking, I think that the Chinese theologians themselves just do not have the ability to teach theology in languages other than Chinese; and the students cannot study in European languages either. If they can do so, probably they have done so already (just like some mainland Chinese intellectuals whom I know personally, who read theology in some British universities or seminaries).

[nkcwong]

Honestly, only second generation Chinese in countries like Spain or Sweden can really master the language well enough for tertiary studies in the local language. We in Europe urgently need ethnic Chinese pastors who can serve our congregations in the Continent. However, hardly ever you will find someone who can master the local language well enough to go and study in the local seminary or the Faculty of Divinity in the universities. Unlike in English-speaking countries where most first generation Chinese immigrants can somehow master the local language, the Continent is really different.



A (Hong Kong Chinese) pastor who has served in Europe told us that one reason why so few Chinese Christians--especially couples with a family--want to serve there is because they have reservations about their kids growing up speaking German or Italian, let alone less widely spoken languages like Dutch or Finnish. They want their kids to grow up fluent in English rather than in other languages.

[horace]

I understand there are some unique cultural challenges in the Chinese church that are not shared by mainstream church, and definitely the pastors need training on how to deal with it. However, isn't that opening a Chinese seminary totally over kill? Most of the syllabus of the Chinese seminary overlap with local seminary, and those basic theology training should be study in local language. The extra knowledge on how to deal with cultural issues can be learn from work shops or conference among the pastors serving the Chinese church.

If studying in a language is part of mastering it, then all the future pastor should learn theological using local language. That will help them to master the local language, so that they can serve as the bridge between new arrivals and the mainstream Christians. Producing Chinese pastors from Chinese seminary will only alienate those oversea Chinese Christian from the mainstream society.

In response to the second question, there is nothing wrong to have a Chinese MBA school or Chinese medical school as long as the school is in China/HK/Taiwan. People should only study using the official language in the place the live or they intend to live in the future. If you want to learn in Chinese, why do you immigrate overseas in the first place? (Note that learning in Chinese is not the same as learning Chinese.)

[if_chf24]

A (Hong Kong Chinese) pastor who has served in Europe told us that one reason why so few Chinese Christians--especially couples with a family--want to serve there is because they have reservations about their kids growing up speaking German or Italian, let alone less widely spoken languages like Dutch or Finnish. They want their kids to grow up fluent in English rather than in other languages.

Yes, this is very true. Perhaps France and Germany fare better given the fact that French and German are considered to be 'major' languages, languages that are worthy spending time to learn given its cultural significance. Some friends of mine who are French-born Chinese, born to Chinese pastors ministering in France, are bi/tri-lingual (French + English + some Cantonese). But to bring up one's kids in Dutch of Finnish would be pretty hard.

[if_chf24]

I understand there are some unique cultural challenges in the Chinese church that are not shared by mainstream church, and definitely the pastors need training on how to deal with it. However, isn't that opening a Chinese seminary totally over kill? Most of the syllabus of the Chinese seminary overlap with local seminary, and those basic theology training should be study in local language. The extra knowledge on how to deal with cultural issues can be learn from work shops or conference among the pastors serving the Chinese church.

If studying in a language is part of mastering it, then all the future pastor should learn theological using local language. That will help them to master the local language, so that they can serve as the bridge between new arrivals and the mainstream Christians. Producing Chinese pastors from Chinese seminary will only alienate those oversea Chinese Christian from the mainstream society.

In response to the second question, there is nothing wrong to have a Chinese MBA school or Chinese medical school as long as the school is in China/HK/Taiwan. People should only study using the official language in the place the live or they intend to live in the future. If you want to learn in Chinese, why do you immigrate overseas in the first place? (Note that learning in Chinese is not the same as learning Chinese.)

You have pretty much missed my points.

Most of the Chinese immigrants in Europe are wage earners working in Chinese restaurants. Most of them have never finished high school in China. I do not think that any of them has any intention to emigrate to Europe for the sake of language learning or any scholarly pursuit. They are there to make a living.

Some of these people have come to know Christ in recent years. A tiny faction of them even dedicated themselves to the Lord to serve Him in the ministry of the Word. But how can they study in the local seminary or university, given their educational background?

If they are in Europe as scholars or students in the first place, they would probably have done well in the local language already and opt for a seminary or Faculty of Divinity which offer a theological training with a higher academic standard and thus in the local language.

However, it is not at all pragmatic to train these pastors-to-be in any European languages for they just do not speak these language well.

Perhaps horace, you have a too ideal picture of what Chinese immigrants can do in Europe. Apart from the more established in Chinese communities in the UK, France and the Netherlands, most Chinese communities in Europe are tiny. Apart from business people, scholars and students, the majority of these Chinese immigrants are restaurant workers, be they legal or illegal. It is this group of people, I imagine, that the Chinese seminary in Europe would like to train.

This applies to the COCM Bible College in Milton Keynes, England. Their academic standard is rather low, lower than most of the seminaries in Hong Kong. But what can you expect these students? If they have done university degrees like us, they will speak English well anyway, and may do their BA or BD from the London School of Theology or even from the Universities.

[horace]

Should we create a water-down 2nd rated or even 3rd rated seminary just because the students are not up to the standard? In doing so, not only the Chinese immigrant will not be properly served, but the sub-par pastor will drag down the quality of Christianity as a whole.

It is important to remember, 寧缺莫濫。 The church has to preserve its integrity.

If there is not enough qualified pastors, maybe they should consider stop growing the church faster than the infrastructure can support. Reckless expansion with bad management is the number 1 killer in business, the same principle also apply to churches.

I rather leave those Chinese immigrant as unbelievers than making them go to church with under-qualified pastors who may teach misleading or even false gospels.

If those oversea Chinese are just wage earner eventually planning to move back home. Then there isn't much a cultural problem after all. They don't plan to integrate, they can live in the their small circle and import pastors from China with a some special training on immigrant consulting. I just feel sorry for their children.

For those dedicated but under qualified Christian who want to serve God. Make yourself well prepared is also a part of serving God. I don't think God want to take short cuts, gain some instant growth and end up in a train wreck, he would think for the long term perspective. I am sure he choose his servant with same mind too.

[wonggk]

Just yesterday I had a lengthly discussion with the president of a Chinese language seminary in the U.S. (accredited, granting M.Div. and two other masters degree). He used to be one of the very early advocator of "mother language education" in HK and was also heavily involved in COCM.

But now he has major problem with some of his own students who don't speak English and refuse to learn English! He too questions how these future pastors can serve their congregation. But the most critical problem in this opinion is that a Chinese language seminary attracts the wrong kind of student!

Like in Europe, U.S. needs Chinese speaking pastors. It is easy to get a job and stay in the U.S. as a Chinese speaking pastor. The U.S. grants special immigration visa for religious workers (only 2 years of experience required, no quota). As a result, he said that some students, who otherwise do not have the necessary skill and education to remain in the U.S., go to seminary just because this is an easy way to a green card! A Chinese language seminary fits these students perfectly. Some students openly told this president their plan. And I am sure that many with this desire will just keep quiet.

Personally I see nothing wrong trying to stay in the U.S. Pastors are human too. I also know many pastors who return to HK (and now some in China) after living in the U.S. for awhile. Their U.S. experience (and nationality) is helping their ministry. Praise the Lord for opening doors.

But the problem with a Chinese language seminary is that it attracks unqualified students. I agree with horace that this is bad for churches and Chinese-speaking Christians in the U.S. Even worse, it allows those who do not have the calling a way to profit from Christianity.

My president friend is working hard to solve this problem. He only became the president one year ago on an interim basis to fill a gap. But even though he is very dedicated and has a good understanding of the problem, I am not optimistic that he can come up with a solution. The seimary can refuse to write reference for some students, but he said that these students are very "smart" and "dedicated" when it comes time to find a job and getting the green card.

I don't know immigration laws in Europe, so can't tell whether the same will be true or not.

It is true that an English speaking seminary may have the same problem. But at least these students are more qualified. Also, if students have the English skill to attend seminary, they already have the skill to find a decent job in the secular world, and hence less likely to use this as a shortcut to immigration.

[if_chf24]

As the Chinese language seminary concerned in this discussion is in Spain and I have no idea what sort of immigration policy does Spain has toward immigrants, I cannot comment upon wonggk's comments.

I think that COCM Bible College has fewer problem like this. Given in the UK, one has to be in FULL-TIME EDUCATION CONTINUOUSLY for TEN YEARS to become a Permanent Resident, hardly any adult immigrant would dream for full-time education as a short-cut to a British passport.

It takes 5 years for an adult in full-time employment in the UK before he or she can apply for Permanent Resident status. It applies to all kind of job. My personal opinion is that to find a job in Chinese restaurants is easier than a job in the Churches!

The simple reason is that most of the European Chinese churches just do not have the money to hire the graduates of COCM Bible college.

In my church, we have a brother who has graduated from COCM Bible college for nearly a year. He still cannot find a job. The field is vast, of course, but who can afford a pastor, honestly? Because it was our church (in London) which is the sending church, i.e. we provide him with tuition fees etc., our church continues to 'employ' him here, providing him with accommodation in the church and so on, until he can find a job in the UK. So many Chinese churches here need pastors, but very few of them can afford a pastor of even a very low salary. It is even worse in the Continent.

In another church that I serve, it survives with the donation from Hong Kong. A famous church in Hong Kong treat the Hong Kong pastor and his wife as missionaries from Hong Kong and pay their salary. The other pastor who graduated from the London Theological Seminary (a very conservative one) is paid by the church here in London. And yet most of the money on our budget comes from Hong Kong anyway.

So, at least the notion of a short-cut to immigration does not apply to COCM Bible College in the UK. As far as I know, the immigration policy in France and Germany is even tighter than the UK, but I am not sure about Spain.

[wonggk]

Should we create a water-down 2nd rated or even 3rd rated seminary just because the students are not up to the standard? In doing so, not only the Chinese immigrant will not be properly served, but the sub-par pastor will drag down the quality of Christianity as a whole.

It is important to remember, 寧缺莫濫。 The church has to preserve its integrity.


I have mixed feeling on this. In medicine we talk about "Some care is better than no care, but no care is better than bad care". I see patients with all kinds of problems. Many I am not qualified to handle. My responsibility is to direct them to proper resources. No doctor can know everything. Because of this philosophy, healthcare now accepts mid-level providers (those with some medical training, but not fully trained as physicians) to take care of patients, as long as they know their limit.

This is the same for a pastor. I've seen many M.Div. and even PhD theologians who don't know what they are talking about. On the other hand, you may not need a PhD or D.Min. pastor to serve a small grassroot congregation. Someone with 2-3 years post-secondary training can do a great job -- as long as they know their limitations, and have resources to back them up.

The real problem, is that the common style of education in Chinese seminary, is just to "brainwash" students into memorizing doctrines. They will never teach students how to think critically. (And I believe that you don't need to be at the PhD level to learn how to think critically.) I don't care what degree they receive, they are just sub-standard. Period.

[tkhwong2005]

I believe that I can share my thoughts and feelings in a personal way: I am a immigrant from HK to Canada which received theological education in English; pastoring a Chinese church with various backgrounds of Chinese as congregational members and serving as volunteering chapline of an online Chinese-speaking theological school.

Firstly, I treasure my theological training in Canada because it is an eye-opening experience. At the same time, I know brothers and sisters who are willing to serve as minister in Chinese congregation struggle to learn theology in English (Imagine that I need to learn Greek in English, which is my 2nd langage). Also, the immigrant church situation is very different the church in HK (e.g.: My church congergation mixed with Cantonese speaking Chinese who came from HK, Mainland China, Vitnman, etc; my church has Cantonese, Manderian and English Department. It becomes very complex to run a church like that). I advocated Chinese-speaking theological training for those who are calling to be a local pastor of Chinese churches. At the same time, I encourage those who have sufficient English skill to study theology in mainstream seminary and contextualize what they learnt in mainstream seminary into specific situation in Chinese immigrant church context.

The quality of theological training is not solely depends on the language use of the school; but also includes the spiritual obedience to the Lord; the critical & cross-cultural theological thinking in their ministry setting, their ministerial skills & character development. Theological training should addresses the heart, head and hands; not just the head only! I have seen seminary gradutes with big head, short hand and cold heart. That kind of person will not survive in the ministry for long time.

I know that it is a great problems for north american seminary on recuritment of students. The problem that the chinese-speaking seminary also occurs in english speaking seminary for those who have better English skill. How to solve this problem? I don't know. But, a true test of the seminary graduates is their actual ministry setting. Nowaday, I have heard very little sharing of real pasotral life to those who consider to study seminary. Sometime, if I share honest about my ministry context and difficulties; most of those who want to get their "green-card" will be driven away. It is the calling of God and His promise to those who are faithful sustain me to serve in the ministry.

It has a lot I can say...but let's stop here and wait for your thoughts.:)

[clement]

歐洲華人教會

http://www.ccea.org.tw/missionworld/adlink/upload/fecc/EuropeanChineseChurches.doc


注意：本欄所列，大部份只是借用的聚會地址，不方便作為通信之用，如要寄郵件，請先聯絡教會或團契的聯絡人。