08暑期閱讀

[Daniel_Cheung]

沒有參加閱讀小組大半年，總是不自在。蒂利希小組約在五月完成，不如我們談談六至八月看甚麼。我暫時想到可以考慮以下其中一本（可能只看某部份，視乎時間而定），都是文集和入門式的，那麼各位不用擔心內容太艱澀，時間表亦可以彈性大一點，一、兩個星期跟不上都仍可以接續看下去。甚至，您可選擇只讀其中某幾篇。

我不是很認真地建議看這幾本其中一本的，若各位有別的興趣，請隨便說說。希望有多些朋友一起看，那會熱鬧一點，而且，以下課題對一般不是學術界或不是教牧的信徒都應是很貼身的。:)

http://assets.cambridge.org/97805217/93957/cover/9780521793957.jpg
The Cambridge Companion to Postmodern Theology
Edited by Kevin J. Vanhoozer (http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521793957)

http://assets.cambridge.org/97805216/03676/cover/9780521603676.jpg
The Cambridge Companion to Atheism
Edited by Michael Martin (http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521603676)

http://www.ivpress.com/img/book/2572.jpg
An Introduction to the Theology of Religions
Biblical, Historical & Contemporary Perspectives
By Veli-Matti Karkkainen (注意：這名字裡寫 'a' 只是因為本網站的 character set 無法顯示正確字母。) (http://www.ivpress.com/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/toc/code=2572)

大概不用多介紹這三本書的內容。第一本是探討後現代思想與神學的整合，第二本讓我們認識多點無神論是怎樣的，第三本簡介處理宗教多元的方案。

[wilson]

雖然暑期教會的工作比一般忙碌, 可是我也有興趣參與讀書組.

1. 上次Philosophy of Law似乎還未完成, 可否擇日重開?

2. 因為三一論是基督教的核心教義, 而作為資深信徒也不一定掌握此教義. 我建議一起看Veli-Matti Karkkainen的The Trinity: Global Perspectives (Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 2007). ISBN-13: 978-0-664-22890-3

Part One: The Biblical Roots of the Doctrine of Trinity
1. Old Testament Monotheism and the Idea of Plurality in God
2. The Rise of the Trinitarian Understanding of God in the New Testament

Part Two: The Historical Growth of Trinitarian traditions
3. The Emergence of Trinitarian Canons in early Christian Theology
4. The Role of Trinitarian Doctrine in the Developing Christian Tradition

Part Three: Contemporary Trinitarian Views: Western Theologies
A. European traditions
5. Karl Barth: The Uniqueness of the Trinitarian God
6. Karl Rahner: The Immanent and Economic Trinity
7. John Zizioulas: Trinity as Communion
8. Jurgan Moltmann: Trinitarian Panentheism
9. Wolfhart Pannenberg: Trinity as "Public Theology"
B. North American Traditions: Dialogue with European Views
10. The North american Context for Trinitarian Reflections
11. Robert Jenson: Triune Identity
12. Catherine M. LaCugna: "God for Us"
13. Elizabeth Johnson: A Feminist Interpretation of the Triune Symbol
14. Millard J. Erickson: An "Evangelical" Doctrine of the Trinity
15. S. Mark Heim: A Trinitarian Theology of "Religious Ends"
16. Ninian Smart and Steven Konstantine: The Divine Threefoldness in the Christian Neo-Transcendentalistic Vision of Love

Part Four: Contemorary Trinitarian Views: Non-western Views
17. Introduction: Trinitarian Reflections in the World Context
A. The Trinity in Latin American and Hispanic Perspectives
18. The Latin American and Hispanic Context for Trinitarian Reflections
19. Leonardo Boff: Trinity as a Society of Equals
20. Justo L. Gonzalez: God Who Is a Minority
B. The Trinity in Asian Perspectives
21. The Asian Context for Trinitarian Reflections
22. Jung Young Lee: Trinity as an Embrace of Yin-Yang
23. Raimundo Panikkar: A Cosmotheandric Mystery of the Trinity
C. The Trinity in African Perspectives
24. The African Context for Trinitarian Reflections
25. C. Nyamiti: Trinitarian Processions as Ancestral relationships
26. A. O. Ogbonnaya: Trinity as Communitarian Divinity

Part Five: Toward a Renewed Trinitarian Theology in the World Context
27. An Assessment and Agenda

[wilson]

3. 若是看中文書, 不知各位有否興趣看曾慶豹主編的後尼采系列:
解構與漢語神學: 巴塔耶, 福柯, 德里達, 伊瑞葛來, 南希
現象學與漢語神學: 胡塞爾, 海德格爾, 勒維納斯, 亨利, 馬里安
政治哲學與漢語神學: 科耶夫, 施特勞斯, 施米特, 沃格林
批判理論與漢語神學: 霍克海默, 阿多爾諾, 布洛赫, 本雅明, 哈貝馬斯
詮釋學與漢語神學: 布爾特曼, 艾伯林, 伽達默爾, 科科, 特雷西

[Daniel_Cheung]

1. 上次Philosophy of Law似乎還未完成, 可否擇日重開?



這要問問負責人 nkcwong 暑假有沒有空。

[nkcwong]

雖然暑期教會的工作比一般忙碌, 可是我也有興趣參與讀書組.

1. 上次Philosophy of Law似乎還未完成, 可否擇日重開?


我也想重開。等一兩個星期我會較清楚暑假的schedule，不過暫時估計暑假我也會很忙。

[nkcwong]

2. 因為三一論是基督教的核心教義, 而作為資深信徒也不一定掌握此教義. 我建議一起看Veli-Matti Karkkainen的The Trinity: Global Perspectives (Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 2007). ISBN-13: 978-0-664-22890-3

Part One: The Biblical Roots of the Doctrine of Trinity
1. Old Testament Monotheism and the Idea of Plurality in God
2. The Rise of the Trinitarian Understanding of God in the New Testament

Part Two: The Historical Growth of Trinitarian traditions
3. The Emergence of Trinitarian Canons in early Christian Theology
4. The Role of Trinitarian Doctrine in the Developing Christian Tradition

Part Three: Contemporary Trinitarian Views: Western Theologies
A. European traditions
5. Karl Barth: The Uniqueness of the Trinitarian God
6. Karl Rahner: The Immanent and Economic Trinity
7. John Zizioulas: Trinity as Communion
8. Jurgan Moltmann: Trinitarian Panentheism
9. Wolfhart Pannenberg: Trinity as "Public Theology"
B. North American Traditions: Dialogue with European Views
10. The North american Context for Trinitarian Reflections
11. Robert Jenson: Triune Identity
12. Catherine M. LaCugna: "God for Us"
13. Elizabeth Johnson: A Feminist Interpretation of the Triune Symbol
14. Millard J. Erickson: An "Evangelical" Doctrine of the Trinity
15. S. Mark Heim: A Trinitarian Theology of "Religious Ends"
16. Ninian Smart and Steven Konstantine: The Divine Threefoldness in the Christian Neo-Transcendentalistic Vision of Love

Part Four: Contemorary Trinitarian Views: Non-western Views
17. Introduction: Trinitarian Reflections in the World Context
A. The Trinity in Latin American and Hispanic Perspectives
18. The Latin American and Hispanic Context for Trinitarian Reflections
19. Leonardo Boff: Trinity as a Society of Equals
20. Justo L. Gonzalez: God Who Is a Minority
B. The Trinity in Asian Perspectives
21. The Asian Context for Trinitarian Reflections
22. Jung Young Lee: Trinity as an Embrace of Yin-Yang
23. Raimundo Panikkar: A Cosmotheandric Mystery of the Trinity
C. The Trinity in African Perspectives
24. The African Context for Trinitarian Reflections
25. C. Nyamiti: Trinitarian Processions as Ancestral relationships
26. A. O. Ogbonnaya: Trinity as Communitarian Divinity

Part Five: Toward a Renewed Trinitarian Theology in the World Context
27. An Assessment and Agenda

驟眼看這文選相當具代表性。以下這些文章標題似乎很吸引：
9. Wolfhart Pannenberg: Trinity as "Public Theology （三位一體神學到底對公共空間有何影響？這是我有興趣的課題。）
19. Leonardo Boff: Trinity as a Society of Equals
22. Jung Young Lee: Trinity as an Embrace of Yin-Yang
24. The African Context for Trinitarian Reflections
25. C. Nyamiti: Trinitarian Processions as Ancestral relationships

[Alan Leung]

看了一半解構與漢語神學。很好的入門介紹,如果能夠有多點backup, 如選擇性地看部份的原文, 相信會獲益良多....

3. 若是看中文書, 不知各位有否興趣看曾慶豹主編的後尼采系列:
解構與漢語神學: 巴塔耶, 福柯, 德里達, 伊瑞葛來, 南希
現象學與漢語神學: 胡塞爾, 海德格爾, 勒維納斯, 亨利, 馬里安
政治哲學與漢語神學: 科耶夫, 施特勞斯, 施米特, 沃格林
批判理論與漢語神學: 霍克海默, 阿多爾諾, 布洛赫, 本雅明, 哈貝馬斯
詮釋學與漢語神學: 布爾特曼, 艾伯林, 伽達默爾, 科科, 特雷西

[wilson]

我也想重開。等一兩個星期我會較清楚暑假的schedule，不過暫時估計暑假我也會很忙。

幾時重開也可以, 也不急於一時.

[wilson]

看了一半解構與漢語神學。很好的入門介紹,如果能夠有多點backup, 如選擇性地看部份的原文, 相信會獲益良多....

同意你的看法, 請各位選擇.

[wilson]

驟眼看這文選相當具代表性。以下這些文章標題似乎很吸引：
9. Wolfhart Pannenberg: Trinity as "Public Theology （三位一體神學到底對公共空間有何影響？這是我有興趣的課題。）
19. Leonardo Boff: Trinity as a Society of Equals
22. Jung Young Lee: Trinity as an Embrace of Yin-Yang
24. The African Context for Trinitarian Reflections
25. C. Nyamiti: Trinitarian Processions as Ancestral relationships

我覺得此書可算是相當全面地討論三一論的近期著作. 全書399頁, 每課20頁左右.

[horace]

我也讚成重開Philosophy of Law﹐反正也買了本書﹐沒有理由不看。

[yanlaptak]

會不會讀些真正的「經典」好些？不必太長的，如Martin Luther的《基督徒的自由》之類，有心有能力的可以多讀點別的討論這本小冊子的東西，例如Marcuse就評論過它。

[Daniel_Cheung]

會不會讀些真正的「經典」好些？不必太長的，如Martin Luther的《基督徒的自由》之類，有心有能力的可以多讀點別的討論這本小冊子的東西，例如Marcuse就評論過它。

也好的。看看有沒有別的會員想這樣。現在大家只是 brainstorming。

[Daniel_Cheung]

各位會員，請隨便表達意見，或表示您想大家一起看哪本書。過一、兩星期後，我們便會做出決定。若人數眾多，意見不一，我們會開兩組或三組。

若您忘記這區是怎樣運作的，請看本區介紹 (http://s-h-c.org/forum/showthread.php?p=5875#post5875)。

[tkhwong2005]

2. 因為三一論是基督教的核心教義, 而作為資深信徒也不一定掌握此教義. 我建議一起看Veli-Matti Karkkainen的The Trinity: Global Perspectives (Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 2007). ISBN-13: 978-0-664-22890-3

Part One: The Biblical Roots of the Doctrine of Trinity
1. Old Testament Monotheism and the Idea of Plurality in God
2. The Rise of the Trinitarian Understanding of God in the New Testament

Part Two: The Historical Growth of Trinitarian traditions
3. The Emergence of Trinitarian Canons in early Christian Theology
4. The Role of Trinitarian Doctrine in the Developing Christian Tradition

Part Three: Contemporary Trinitarian Views: Western Theologies
A. European traditions
5. Karl Barth: The Uniqueness of the Trinitarian God
6. Karl Rahner: The Immanent and Economic Trinity
7. John Zizioulas: Trinity as Communion
8. Jurgan Moltmann: Trinitarian Panentheism
9. Wolfhart Pannenberg: Trinity as "Public Theology"
B. North American Traditions: Dialogue with European Views
10. The North american Context for Trinitarian Reflections
11. Robert Jenson: Triune Identity
12. Catherine M. LaCugna: "God for Us"
13. Elizabeth Johnson: A Feminist Interpretation of the Triune Symbol
14. Millard J. Erickson: An "Evangelical" Doctrine of the Trinity
15. S. Mark Heim: A Trinitarian Theology of "Religious Ends"
16. Ninian Smart and Steven Konstantine: The Divine Threefoldness in the Christian Neo-Transcendentalistic Vision of Love

Part Four: Contemorary Trinitarian Views: Non-western Views
17. Introduction: Trinitarian Reflections in the World Context
A. The Trinity in Latin American and Hispanic Perspectives
18. The Latin American and Hispanic Context for Trinitarian Reflections
19. Leonardo Boff: Trinity as a Society of Equals
20. Justo L. Gonzalez: God Who Is a Minority
B. The Trinity in Asian Perspectives
21. The Asian Context for Trinitarian Reflections
22. Jung Young Lee: Trinity as an Embrace of Yin-Yang
23. Raimundo Panikkar: A Cosmotheandric Mystery of the Trinity
C. The Trinity in African Perspectives
24. The African Context for Trinitarian Reflections
25. C. Nyamiti: Trinitarian Processions as Ancestral relationships
26. A. O. Ogbonnaya: Trinity as Communitarian Divinity

Part Five: Toward a Renewed Trinitarian Theology in the World Context
27. An Assessment and Agenda

I think this book or An Introduction about theology of religion by the same author is a good choice :)

[Alan]

沒有參加閱讀小組大半年，總是不自在。蒂利希小組約在五月完成，不如我們談談六至八月看甚麼。我暫時想到可以考慮以下其中一本（可能只看某部份，視乎時間而定），都是文集和入門式的，那麼各位不用擔心內容太艱澀，時間表亦可以彈性大一點，一、兩個星期跟不上都仍可以接續看下去。甚至，您可選擇只讀其中某幾篇。

我不是很認真地建議看這幾本其中一本的，若各位有別的興趣，請隨便說說。希望有多些朋友一起看，那會熱鬧一點，而且，以下課題對一般不是學術界或不是教牧的信徒都應是很貼身的。:)

http://assets.cambridge.org/97805217/93957/cover/9780521793957.jpg
The Cambridge Companion to Postmodern Theology
Edited by Kevin J. Vanhoozer (http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521793957)

http://assets.cambridge.org/97805216/03676/cover/9780521603676.jpg
The Cambridge Companion to Atheism
Edited by Michael Martin (http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521603676)

http://www.ivpress.com/img/book/2572.jpg
An Introduction to the Theology of Religions
Biblical, Historical & Contemporary Perspectives
By Veli-Matti Karkkainen (注意：這名字裡寫 'a' 只是因為本網站的 character set 無法顯示正確字母。) (http://www.ivpress.com/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/toc/code=2572)

大概不用多介紹這三本書的內容。第一本是探討後現代思想與神學的整合，第二本讓我們認識多點無神論是怎樣的，第三本簡介處理宗教多元的方案。



Hi Everybody, I'm a new comer to this webpage and interested to co-read some books. On trinity, the one written by Karkkainen seems good for a quick overview and essay writing. It's Colin Gunton's The Promise of Triniitarian Theology and The Triune Creator as well as John Thompson's Modern Trinitarian Perspectives really impress me. Especially Gunton, he doesn't stop at explaining trinity but appropriate the 'relation within trinity' into praxis.

Personally I'm interested in hermeneutics including Christian, Jewish and philosophical ones. Anyone interested in Thiselton, Frei, Ricoeur?

[wilson]

Personally I'm interested in hermeneutics including Christian, Jewish and philosophical ones. Anyone interested in Thiselton, Frei, Ricoeur?

I'm interested too.

How about Thiselton's new book: Hermeneutics of Doctrine?

[Alan]

I'm interested too.

How about Thiselton's new book: Hermeneutics of Doctrine?

Thiselton on Hermeneutics is a collection of old and some new essays of Thiselton. 800 pages! Better to select part of it to suit one's own need. He prefers Speech-Act to reader-response criticism. We can either focus on Speech-Act, complemented with Austin and John Searle, or, his critique of reader-response criticism. Austin's classic How to do things with Words (164 pages) or George Lindbeck's masterpiece The Nature of Doctrine (135 pages) are difficult but manageable.

[wilson]

[He prefers Speech-Act to reader-response criticism. We can either focus on Speech-Act, complemented with Austin and John Searle, or, his critique of reader-response criticism. Austin's classic How to do things with Words (164 pages) or George Lindbeck's masterpiece The Nature of Doctrine (135 pages) are difficult but manageable.

I prefer The Nature of Doctrine.

[zhengzi]

雖然暑期教會的工作比一般忙碌, 可是我也有興趣參與讀書組.

1. 上次Philosophy of Law似乎還未完成, 可否擇日重開?

2. 因為三一論是基督教的核心教義, 而作為資深信徒也不一定掌握此教義. 我建議一起看Veli-Matti Karkkainen的The Trinity: Global Perspectives (Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 2007). ISBN-13: 978-0-664-22890-3

Part One: The Biblical Roots of the Doctrine of Trinity
1. Old Testament Monotheism and the Idea of Plurality in God
2. The Rise of the Trinitarian Understanding of God in the New Testament

Part Two: The Historical Growth of Trinitarian traditions
3. The Emergence of Trinitarian Canons in early Christian Theology
4. The Role of Trinitarian Doctrine in the Developing Christian Tradition

Part Three: Contemporary Trinitarian Views: Western Theologies
A. European traditions
5. Karl Barth: The Uniqueness of the Trinitarian God
6. Karl Rahner: The Immanent and Economic Trinity
7. John Zizioulas: Trinity as Communion
8. Jurgan Moltmann: Trinitarian Panentheism
9. Wolfhart Pannenberg: Trinity as "Public Theology"
B. North American Traditions: Dialogue with European Views
10. The North american Context for Trinitarian Reflections
11. Robert Jenson: Triune Identity
12. Catherine M. LaCugna: "God for Us"
13. Elizabeth Johnson: A Feminist Interpretation of the Triune Symbol
14. Millard J. Erickson: An "Evangelical" Doctrine of the Trinity
15. S. Mark Heim: A Trinitarian Theology of "Religious Ends"
16. Ninian Smart and Steven Konstantine: The Divine Threefoldness in the Christian Neo-Transcendentalistic Vision of Love

Part Four: Contemorary Trinitarian Views: Non-western Views
17. Introduction: Trinitarian Reflections in the World Context
A. The Trinity in Latin American and Hispanic Perspectives
18. The Latin American and Hispanic Context for Trinitarian Reflections
19. Leonardo Boff: Trinity as a Society of Equals
20. Justo L. Gonzalez: God Who Is a Minority
B. The Trinity in Asian Perspectives
21. The Asian Context for Trinitarian Reflections
22. Jung Young Lee: Trinity as an Embrace of Yin-Yang
23. Raimundo Panikkar: A Cosmotheandric Mystery of the Trinity
C. The Trinity in African Perspectives
24. The African Context for Trinitarian Reflections
25. C. Nyamiti: Trinitarian Processions as Ancestral relationships
26. A. O. Ogbonnaya: Trinity as Communitarian Divinity

Part Five: Toward a Renewed Trinitarian Theology in the World Context
27. An Assessment and Agenda

我有興趣看這一本。

[Daniel_Cheung]

看來這裡建議多於和議。暫時相對地較多人表示有興趣是以下三本書：

An Introduction to the Theology of Religions，若把提議者算在內，有三人表示有興趣。
The Trinity: Global Perspectives，若把提議者算在內，有三人表示有興趣。
The Nature of Doctrine，若把提議者算在內，有二人表示有興趣。


過往的經驗是很多人說會參加，但往往開了一半就腰斬。其實閱讀小組沒有限定要多少人的，兩個人也可以。只是人少容易使人感到掃興。後來我們新設了書介及個人閱讀分享區 (http://s-h-c.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=103)，讓大家在沒有適合的閱讀小組可參加的情況下繼續機會多談一些讀書心得。我不知今次會怎樣，我個人當然希望自己能讀完一本書。但假如讀不完，但各位想讀別的卻沒有小組，可考慮在書介及個人閱讀分享區 (http://s-h-c.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=103)分享。
:)

[Ming Yuen Yee]

看來這裡建議多於和議。暫時相對地較多人表示有興趣是以下三本書：

An Introduction to the Theology of Religions，若把提議者算在內，有三人表示有興趣。
The Trinity: Global Perspectives，若把提議者算在內，有三人表示有興趣。
The Nature of Doctrine，若把提議者算在內，有二人(+ 明婉儀 = 三人) 表示有興趣。


我「需要」看這本書，而且它的確已成經典，不看看完文不可。如果能開組，我可以承諾最少看完它，並積極參與討論。

[wilson]

我「需要」看這本書，而且它的確已成經典，不看看完文不可。如果能開組，我可以承諾最少看完它，並積極參與討論。

有明姐的加入的確熱鬧. 無論開那一組, 我都樂意加入. 人生難得遇上肯看書, 又樂於分享的人. 相信我會享受這彼此學習的過程. 其實這三本書我都有興趣看. 現在我開始看Trinity, 之後會看The Nature of Doctrine. 如果是開後者, 我便同時間慢慢看兩本書吧!

[yanlaptak]

我猜《The Nature of Doctrine》不會容易，但既然都得花精力，我寧願花在經典上去。我同意讀這本書。

[Daniel_Cheung]

這本書突然由第三名跳升至第一名！大概兩天內沒有變化，我們就這樣決定吧。

[Daniel Tang]

:) hi I'm interested in the philosophy of law as I've got the book already.

[Daniel_Cheung]

為方便有興趣朋友找書來一起讀，請問有 The Nature of Doctrine 的朋友可否寫下出版資料、價錢、和在哪裡可以買到？中譯的資料也需要。謝謝！待我們最終決定後，我便會通知會員。學會執委亦正考慮會否在《時代論壇》登廣告，鼓勵信徒參與。

[Alan]

Lindbeck, G. (1984), The Nature of Doctrine: Religion and Theology in a Postliberal Age (Paperback), Westminster John Knox Press.

US$22.45 (new) or US$7.95 (2nd hand)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0664246184/ref=dp_olp_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1207131483&sr=1-1

p.s. Wilson, have u ever worked in Wah King Hill?

[wilson]

中文譯本:

林貝克著, 王志成譯: "教義的本質: 後自由主義時代中的宗教及神學" (香港: 漢語基督教文化研究所, 1997). HK$72-

中文版有江丕盛的導言.

似乎中文版的存貨不多, 也許請教Boundary兄, 可否給與一些協助.

[Daniel_Cheung]

好的，現在決定會在暑期一起讀 The Nature of Doctrine ！接著要做的事，是請有心人幫助，做一個時間表，在二至三個月內看完的話，每週應看多少。同時，會參加的朋友可以看看哪個星期自己是沒空的，大家便可一同商議一個適合各人的時間表。

我沒書在手，所以有勞各位了　:ani_bowdown2:

[Daniel Tang]

book ordered :em1:

[wilson]

好的，現在決定會在暑期一起讀 The Nature of Doctrine ！接著要做的事，是請有心人幫助，做一個時間表，在二至三個月內看完的話，每週應看多少。同時，會參加的朋友可以看看哪個星期自己是沒空的，大家便可一同商議一個適合各人的時間表。

我建議如下, 歡迎各位更正:

第一周: 江丕盛的中譯本導言

第二周: 第一章
Theory, Ecumenism, and the Culture: The Proposal in Context
- The Ecumenical Matrix
- The Psychosocial Context
理論, 普世教會合一與文化: 語境中的提議
- 普世教會合一的母體
- 社會心理處境

第三周: 第二章
Religion and Experience: A Pretheological Inquiry
- An Experiential-Expressive Model
- A Cultural-Linquistic Alternative
- The Inconclusiveness of the Comparison
宗教與經驗: 前神學探討
- 經驗: 表現論模式
- 文化: 語言學模式
- 沒有終結的比較

第四周: 休息

第五周: 第三章
Many Religions and the One True Faith
- Unsurpassability
- The interrelationships of Religions
- Salvation and Other Faiths
- Excursus on Religion and Truth
多種宗教與一種真信仰
- 不可超越性
- 宗教間的相互關係
- 得救和其他信仰
- 詳論宗教與真理

第六周: 第四章
Theories of Doctrine
- Doctrines and Thier Problems
- Grammar and Doctrine, Continuity and Change
- A Taxanomy of doctrines
教義理論
- 教義及其問題
- 語法與教義, 連續與變化
- 教義分類學

第七周: 休息

第八周: 第五章
Testing the Theory: Christology, Mariology, and infallibility
- Nicaea and Chalcedon
- Marian Dogmas
- Infallibility
- The Superiority of a Regulative View
對理論的檢驗: 基督論, 聖母論與無謬誤說
- "尼西亞信經"和"迦克墩信經"
- 聖母論教條
- 無謬誤說
- 規則論觀點的優勢

第九周: 第六章
Toward a Postliberal Theology
- The Problem of Assessment
- Faithfulness as Intratextuality
- Applicability as Futurology
- Intelligibility as Skill
- Conclusion
走向後自由主義神學
- 評價問題
- 作為文本內的可信性
- 作為未來學的適用性
- 作為技巧的可理解性
- 結論

[蒲先生]

大家好.....小弟番來了.....各位好嗎.....

呢本書我睇過了.......今次唔睇了.......中文版封面唔錯的......耶穌金身掛在木頭上.....有六舊腹肌......很動人的......祝大家蒙福.....

[Ming Yuen Yee]

呢本書我睇過了.......今次唔睇了.......中文版封面唔錯的......耶穌金身掛在木頭上.....有六舊腹肌......很動人的......祝大家蒙福.....
:D
蒲兄既已看過此書，有你加入討論豈非更好？！

[蒲先生]

多謝明君不棄......此書對我可是沒有feel呢.....可能我當時自己讀.......你們一齊讀.......應該好好多.......我會點擊你們的討論區.......汲取大家的精神食糧.......但不能加入了.......(從前中國神學研究院的余達心好似為此書授過課......如本園地有人上過課.......又可以多個華人大師傅的角度了.......)

[if_chf24]

小弟要趕著在九個月內完成博士學位，因此要面對很大的工作壓力，沒有能力參加了，雖然我也很有興趣看《教義的本質》。

祝願各位享受這個暑假讀書組！

[horace]

八月要結婚﹐沒有時間參加新的讀書會﹐大家努力吧。

[蒲先生]

八月......summer romance......醉人呀.......

[Alan]

其實如果有咁多會員之前有興趣讀 Tillich (未知進度如何), 我本以為應該好多人想讀 Frei, Lindbeck 甚至Hauerwas. 因為 Liberal 之 Tillich 與 Chicago School 一脈相承, 而 Lindbeck 等人開創了Yale School 之 Postliberal Theology 與之打對台... 再者, 不少其他詮釋學/神學/倫理都可置於此兩極之間 (Frei 定義之 5 Types of Theology), 有如華山論劍... 先讀 Tillich (及 Tracy), 再讀 Yale School 更似西門吹雪對葉弧城, 加上Frei 及Lindbeck 之Narrative Theology 同福音派有咁多"類同"及Hauerwas "入世而不屬世之基督徒見證" 咁啱聽, 其實想唔睇都好難架wor...

[Daniel_Cheung]

其實如果有咁多會員之前有興趣讀 Tillich (未知進度如何), 我本以為應該好多人想讀 Frei, Lindbeck 甚至Hauerwas. 因為 Liberal 之 Tillich 與 Chicago School 一脈相承, 而 Lindbeck 等人開創了Yale School 之 Postliberal Theology 與之打對台... 再者, 不少其他詮釋學/神學/倫理都可置於此兩極之間 (Frei 定義之 5 Types of Theology), 有如華山論劍... 先讀 Tillich (及 Tracy), 再讀 Yale School 更似西門吹雪對葉弧城, 加上Frei 及Lindbeck 之Narrative Theology 同福音派有咁多"類同"及Hauerwas "入世而不屬世之基督徒見證" 咁啱聽, 其實想唔睇都好難架wor...

生有涯，學無涯。我們這裡專業研究神學的只有一、兩位，其他人都是旁涉，工作的沒時間，讀書的要兼顧不同學科。通常有四、五個人我們便會開組的，並盼望可以堅持到底。

[wilson]

八月要結婚﹐沒有時間參加新的讀書會﹐大家努力吧。

恭喜你成家立室:D

[wilson]

剛剛看完江丕盛的導言, 似乎不宜作第一周的閱讀. 因為江氏在文章中把他對此書的詮釋寫出來, 包括此書的一些重要脈絡及他對此書的評價. 我個人認為, 讀書組的時間宜修正為:

Plan A:
week 1: Foreword
week 2: Ch. 1
week 3: Ch. 2
week 4: take a rest
week 5: Ch. 3
week 6: Ch. 4
week 7: take a rest
week 8: Ch. 5
week 9: Ch. 6

Plan B:
week 1: Foreword and Ch. 1
week 2: Ch. 2
week 3: Ch. 3
week 4: take a rest
week 5: Ch. 4
week 6: Ch. 5
week 7: Ch. 6

請各位參與者表達你們的意願.

[Alan]

生有涯，學無涯。我們這裡專業研究神學的只有一、兩位，其他人都是旁涉，工作的沒時間，讀書的要兼顧不同學科。通常有四、五個人我們便會開組的，並盼望可以堅持到底。

But both schools debate also on the universality of religious experience/knowledge, will that be a kind of philosophical inquiry, i suppose?

[Daniel_Cheung]

But both schools debate also on the universality of religious experience/knowledge, will that be a kind of philosophical inquiry, i suppose?

那些當然是哲學問題。但這沒有解決「生有涯、學無涯」的困局。

今次小組雖然人數不多，但參加者都十分有決心和具有不同神哲學背景，學會亦打算在《時代論壇》賣廣告，吸引更多信徒。所以，應該會搞得很好的。:)

[boundary]

此書之中譯本有存貨，本人同意跳過江的中譯本導言。

[Daniel_Cheung]

我支持 Plan B，速戰速決！:D

至於哪日開始，我沒所謂。各位若沒有甚麼夏令會或外遊之類的，我們可以暫定由六月開始。

[zhengzi]

小弟要趕著在九個月內完成博士學位，因此要面對很大的工作壓力，沒有能力參加了，雖然我也很有興趣看《教義的本質》。

祝願各位享受這個暑假讀書組！
跟我的情況差不多:em12: ，我是要一年內完成博士學位，可我還有一份全職工作呢。大家努力吧！

[wilson]

原來if_chf24兄, 與zhengzi兄在這年內要完成博士課程, 好像還有張會長. 我會在私禱中為你們禱告. 假若六月有空, 請在此讀書組發表你們的意見.

謝謝Boundary兄的資料, 原來中譯本有存貨, 不知價格多少? 如何取書? 或許個別聯絡Boundary兄吧! 正如蒲生所說, 十字架上的耶穌像有"六舊腹肌", 不過不是石黑龍那類型的腹肌.

[Alan]

我支持 Plan B，速戰速決！:D

至於哪日開始，我沒所謂。各位若沒有甚麼夏令會或外遊之類的，我們可以暫定由六月開始。

同意, 只想問有無機會再早D 開波, 例如五月? 我看的是英文版, 以經典而言此書較短較易看, 以大家水平, 如加上張會長在哲學方面之補充, 會好快完成, 反而多點討論更有價值, 尤其此書可涉之範圍可以好廣, 神學, 哲學, 倫理, 宗教比較及對談以致一大堆人文學科都千絲萬縷...

[Daniel_Cheung]

同意, 只想問有無機會再早D 開波, 例如五月? 我看的是英文版, 以經典而言此書較短較易看, 以大家水平, 如加上張會長在哲學方面之補充, 會好快完成, 反而多點討論更有價值, 尤其此書可涉之範圍可以好廣, 神學, 哲學, 倫理, 宗教比較及對談以致一大堆人文學科都千絲萬縷...

論到與這書有關的哲學思想，恐怕明婉儀和 yanlaptak 等比我的好，我專長的只是英美知識論:p

由於想做宣傳，最早只可以是五月第二周開始。各位請儘快決定何時開始。謝謝！

[Ming Yuen Yee]

關於這本書「道聽塗說」了很多，都是二手資料。聞說Lindbeck用了很多Wittgenstein、Kuhn和Geertz，全是我興趣範圍，自當盡力參與討論。（不得不多口說句，假如Rorty是人文學者中最受歡迎的哲學家，Geertz便是最受哲學家歡迎的文化人類學家，但其實他在人類學界已經被「升上神台」，不再怎麼有影響力。這是典型的「來老貨」較吃香的現象。）

五月開始我沒問題。其實書算是很薄，應該時間上不會太難應付。反而的確會引申很多跨科際的人文問題，這才是此書值得一讀的原因。

[Alan]

關於這本書「道聽塗說」了很多，都是二手資料。聞說Lindbeck用了很多Wittgenstein、Kuhn和Geertz，全是我興趣範圍，自當盡力參與討論。（不得不多口說句，假如Rorty是人文學者中最受歡迎的哲學家，Geertz便是最受哲學家歡迎的文化人類學家，但其實他在人類學界已經被「升上神台」，不再怎麼有影響力。這是典型的「來老貨」較吃香的現象。）

五月開始我沒問題。其實書算是很薄，應該時間上不會太難應付。反而的確會引申很多跨科際的人文問題，這才是此書值得一讀的原因。

明姐, 我很久以前曾看過此書, 記憶所及, 論及Wittgenstein 不外乎: (a) Language Game (to justify Christians can have their own 'grammar' to socialize/Christianize (it's my wordings), or, let new converts to learn how to live out Jesus' example); (b) the contrast between 'interpreting a truth and obeying a rule' appropriated from his Philosophical Investigations. 至於 Clifford Geertz的 anthropology, 應該係與 Lindbeck 同一路(用cultural-lingustics). 好像只有appropriation , 並無深入critique.

反而Lindbeck 較多提到天主教之 Karl Rahner 及 Bernard Lonergan 是我不能掌握的 (我對他們只有很框架式的了解, 十分有興趣知多一點這兩世外高人的想法, 望有會員賜教), 可能因為此書之背景乃Lutheran and Roman Catholics 之ecumenical discussions.

整體感覺, 重點是Lindbeck承著Barth 等傳統 (it's a question to what extent this is valid )，透過解釋Doctrine之源起及應用範圍， 去回應 Liberals 如 Schleiermacher and Tillich 以致 Revisionists 如 Chicago School 之David Tracy 及McFague.

以上謹憑記憶及個人領會，能越早開始越好．

[Ming Yuen Yee]

用amazon的On-line Reader查一查，果然有多處提到Lonergan。Lonergan是我的偶像呢！Rahner久聞其名，未識其人。很期待開始讀書。:D

[Alan]

用amazon的On-line Reader查一查，果然有多處提到Lonergan。Lonergan是我的偶像呢！Rahner久聞其名，未識其人。很期待開始讀書。:D

von Balthazar, Karl Rahner, Lonergan 著作件件又厚又硬，要有神父式既專注同才學先消化得來．Lonergan 更是奇人中的奇人，最後好似搞埋Economics!

[Alan]

von Balthazar, Karl Rahner, Lonergan 著作件件又厚又硬，要有神父式既專注同才學先消化得來．Lonergan 更是奇人中的奇人，最後好似搞埋Economics!

補充: "神父式既專注" 係指欲練神功，必先自宮，拍拖結婚有家室者，揀第二個做研究對象會無咁frustrated :em12:

[Daniel_Cheung]

大家對時間好像沒有甚麼意見。那麼，我們在五月十一日開始第一週吧。

[clement]

補充: "神父式既專注" 係指欲練神功，必先自宮，拍拖結婚有家室者，揀第二個做研究對象會無咁frustrated :em12:

要寫這些書的話，可能最好是能夠獨身全時間做研究的專家。

但我猜，要做個好讀者，大概也非太困難的事情－－畢竟閱讀能力是可以慢慢培養的。　:)

　

[Alan]

要寫這些書的話，可能最好是能夠獨身全時間做研究的專家。

但我猜，要做個好讀者，大概也非太困難的事情－－畢竟閱讀能力是可以慢慢培養的。　:)

　

在這裏有哲學, 人文及天主教背景之高手, 十分期待閱讀此書及引申的討論:em2:

[Alan]

此書中之 cultural-lingusitc method 令我聯想起 95-96年間在時代論壇一場接近一年的 "文化基督徒" 辯論, 當中涉及中, 港, 台共八位學者, 源起於羅秉祥提出香港神學界需有 人作"百基拉"以糾正"亞波羅"之偏頗 (指一些在教會以外, 尤其是那些透過閱讀基督教著作而信基督教的國內學者), 當時引來不少神學方法的討論 (例如以文化作為進路之合法或有效性, 中國基督徒之文化承擔, 漢語基督教神學的理念相對於香港的處境神學等). 不知在這裏有沒有人曾經討論過. 這討論與此書及此人文學會應有很多相關及可討論的地方.:)

[Daniel_Cheung]

此書中之 cultural-lingusitc method 令我聯想起 95-96年間在時代論壇一場接近一年的 "文化基督徒" 辯論, 當中涉及中, 港, 台共八位學者, 源起於羅秉祥提出香港神學界需有 人作"百基拉"以糾正"亞波羅"之偏頗 (指一些在教會以外, 尤其是那些透過閱讀基督教著作而信基督教的國內學者), 當時引來不少神學方法的討論 (例如以文化作為進路之合法或有效性, 中國基督徒之文化承擔, 漢語基督教神學的理念相對於香港的處境神學等). 不知在這裏有沒有人曾經討論過. 這討論與此書及此人文學會應有很多相關及可討論的地方.:)

印象中我們間竭地談過，但沒有很集中和仔細地談。或許今次可會是一個好機會。:)

[Alan Leung]

這裡有一個登在The Presbyterian Journal 對Lindbeck's Nature of Doctrine的書介.

主要是說Lindbeck提出了對教義的本質作了一個新的解釋;就是將其視為一種語言.

Lindbeck 稱這種看法可以消解將教義看作真理(propositional truths)或純綷宗教經驗的外在表現(Articulation of religious experience) 之間的矛盾.......他嘗試證明這種教義作為言語的看法是比剛提及的另外兩種看法更為基本.但這書介的作者並不贊成,反認為此三種看法是互惠互利,而這本Nature of Doctrine是補足了宗教界對Lindbeck所提出之"Doctrine as a kind of language"的疏忽.

http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/1985Lindbeck.html


引http://people.bu.edu/wwildman/WeirdWildWeb/courses/mwt/dictionary/mwt_themes_862_lindbeck.htm
........
In the last decade, Lindbeck’s postliberal position has also received a great deal of attention from evangelicals in the USA. In 1995, for instance, Lindbeck and George Hunsinger, another advocate of postliberalism, were invited to engage in conversation with evangelical theologians as part of the Wheaton Theology Conference. In the last panel discussion of the conference Lindbeck expressed his conviction that, “if the sort of research program represented by postliberalism has a real future as a communal enterprise of the church, it’s more likely to be carried on by evangelicals than anyone else” (Phillips & Okholm 1996, 253).

Why does Lindbeck make such a remark? Is this being made in a specific context? Why is evangelical being more equipped than others (Liberals?) in carrying this so-called postliberalistic program?

[wilson]

Why does Lindbeck make such a remark? Is this being made in a specific context? Why is evangelical being more equipped than others (Liberals?) in carrying this so-called postliberalistic program?

I don't remember where I read before, maybe from McGrath's book "A Passion for Truth." There is a dialogue between the postliberal and the evangelical theologians in Wheaton around 1995. And according to McGrath's saying, in the footnote (?), Lindbeck told McGrath that postliberalism is still under making, and the evangelical is being more equipped than those liberal.

[Alan]

這裡有一個登在The Presbyterian Journal 對Lindbeck's Nature of Doctrine的書介.

主要是說Lindbeck提出了對教義的本質作了一個新的解釋;就是將其視為一種語言.

Lindbeck 稱這種看法可以消解將教義看作真理(propositional truths)或純綷宗教經驗的外在表現(Articulation of religious experience) 之間的矛盾.......他嘗試證明這種教義作為言語的看法是比剛提及的另外兩種看法更為基本.但這書介的作者並不贊成,反認為此三種看法是互惠互利,而這本Nature of Doctrine是補足了宗教界對Lindbeck所提出之"Doctrine as a kind of language"的疏忽.

http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/1985Lindbeck.html


引http://people.bu.edu/wwildman/WeirdWildWeb/courses/mwt/dictionary/mwt_themes_862_lindbeck.htm
........


Why does Lindbeck make such a remark? Is this being made in a specific context? Why is evangelical being more equipped than others (Liberals?) in carrying this so-called postliberalistic program?

My humble opinion is that the first article simply misreads Lindbeck and the second one is better, though not a satisfactory reading of Lindbeck's book.

To Alan Leung, whether the evangelicals are more readily in line with the postliberals is still a question, it's quite true that liberals are definitely the opponent to Lindbeck. Their very fundamental assumptions represent two polars.:cool:

[Alan Leung]

I don't remember where I read before, maybe from McGrath's book "A Passion for Truth." There is a dialogue between the postliberal and the evangelical theologians in Wheaton around 1995. And according to McGrath's saying, in the footnote (?), Lindbeck told McGrath that postliberalism is still under making, and the evangelical is being more equipped than those liberal.

Thanks, Wilson.

The evangelicals are, too, under making; what is the advantage of the evangelicals in adopting the cultural-linguistic approach?

Is Lindbeck attempting more on using this whole approach as a method merely targeting at explaining the current situation of the evangelicals rather than trying to change this situation?


My humble opinion is that the first article simply misreads Lindbeck and the second one is better, though not a satisfactory reading of Lindbeck's book.

Indeed, the second is better than the first. As you or someone else said in earlier posts that Lindbeck has borrowed Kuhn's idea for constructing his cultural-linguistic approach, the first essay in the Boston achive by Joas Adiprasetya did make me feel like so. However, the essay did not make emphasis on this, perhaps, the incommensurability thing is more of a general than a particular idea from Kuhn.... not sure about that.

[Alan]

另一位Alan兄好, 我係首次參加讀書組, 不知規矩, 但想有如看戲, 細節於閱讀時再討論可能較好, 免形成先入為主, 所以沒再細緻說出對來文之反對論點, 文章是否評得有理, 讀下去很易看得出.

只是就福音派與Lindbeck 之cultural-linguistic approach而言, 我粗評一點, 福音派 (就說香港吧, 美國我不知情) 似乎對此所知不多, 因其一向都不太有興趣神學的新發展, 較習慣 "being there" 後便跳到 "become here (reader's specific application situation)", 中間二千多年的歷史及今日的大環境可以完全無關. 至於有部份本地學者擬拾西方神學家牙慧, 提出postliberalism對福音派如何友好時, 似乎並未作出充份之了解及批判, 可能稍後知道代價係要放棄其他教義時至知死 (不過我個人認為這化價是值得的).:rolleyes:

[Alan Leung]

叫我Alan L. 或阿梁就可以....

現在多理解一下,讓我對這書多了點興趣....我還是那個問題:這個Cultural-linguistic的approach是要解釋或是要改變教會現狀? 你也講得對,先入為主是不大好, 我們五月十一日開始....要先去訂書...或者可用這段時間看看其他有關的東西...

[Alan]

叫我Alan L. 或阿梁就可以....

現在多理解一下,讓我對這書多了點興趣....我還是那個問題:這個Cultural-linguistic的approach是要解釋或是要改變教會現狀? 你也講得對,先入為主是不大好, 我們五月十一日開始....要先去訂書...或者可用這段時間看看其他有關的東西...

視乎你所站立之處而定啦, 可能有教會一直用 cultural-linguistic approach (但未必用此字眼, 甚至無聽過), 咁Lindbeck可以作為佢地既支持或解釋, 以抗衡自由派挑戰佢地係sectarian...

但正如我之前既個人建議, 如果將Lindbeck置於Liberals/Revisionists既對立面黎睇 (當然實際上亦有共同之地方), 會比較critical, 有如看到傾電話的兩方. 如有Tillich或Tracy高手參與討論, 一定好精彩.

[Daniel_Cheung]

剛替這一組開了新區 (http://s-h-c.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=124)，發了電郵給所有會員，學會亦在下期《時代論壇》登廣告。希望今次會很熱鬧，討論深入，貫徹始終。:)

各位若想在開組前討論一些相關的話題，請到新區開新 threads 。謝謝！