Development of online education of Christian learning

[tkhwong2005]

Dear all,

I think it is good to start with some discussion, formulation of the foundational elements of this online education. It consists of few steps in curriculum design:


contextual reflection - knowing the context of the learners before designing any educational activities
Need Assessment - The needs of learners emerge from the reflection of these unique context
Purpose Statement - Knowing the needs of learners, then we can develop the purpose of this educational projects
Objectives - The objectives grow out from the purposes of this educational activities. The objectives should meet the needs of learners.
Structure of program - the educational structure - class, learening method, classroom environment, learner-teacher relationship...etc grow out from the objectives of this learning activities
Evaluation of program - Methodology: How do we evaluates how learners learnt, how teacher taught and the effectiveness of this learning activities


At this moment, I think my role is a facilitator and coordinator of developing the curriculum of this online education projector (If you think it is apporiprate :) )

That means I will guide everyone to think throught these steps and develop these a sound curriculum (Henry, you can share your insights in online distance pedegogical approach). In terms of technical aspects, I think nkwong and others can look into it. Gordon, you can share your insights of curriculum. Daniel Cheung, you can also give me your insights as online instructor.

Maybe we can start reflect and answer these questions:

1) Contextaul Reflections:

What are some significant ascepts of the history, culture, psychological make-up and ecclesiatical life/theological maturity of the learners in which we desire to teach? In general, what is the unique features of our learners?


What implications for Christian education grow out of this context?


Please share your thoughts and ideas, so that I can collect, analyze and share to you guys. Thanks! :D

[wonggk]

1) Contextaul Reflections:

What are some significant ascepts of the history, culture, psychological make-up and ecclesiatical life/theological maturity of the learners in which we desire to teach? In general, what is the unique features of our learners?


What implications for Christian education grow out of this context?


Please share your thoughts and ideas, so that I can collect, analyze and share to you guys. Thanks! :D

Let me be the first one to raise my hand :D

Unique features of our learners:

1. Unsatisfied with teaching they can get from their church.
2. Consider answers to these topics important for their spiritual life.
(1 & 2 are related but not the same, some may be unsatisfied but at the same time don't care)
3. Somewhat marginalized -- if they have a large support group to hang-out, they won't be interested in an on-line class.
4. Computer literate
5. Psychologically they likely are the more field-independent or thinking-introverted type
6. Also likely have strong locus of control -- want to know what's going on

My hypotheses are based on the fact that if one is very satisfied with their church, or doesn't care, they won't even be interested in learning this type of topics.

[tkhwong2005]

Let me be the first one to raise my hand :D

Unique features of our learners:

1. Unsatisfied with teaching they can get from their church.
2. Consider answers to these topics important for their spiritual life.
(1 & 2 are related but not the same, some may be unsatisfied but at the same time don't care)
3. Somewhat marginalized -- if they have a large support group to hang-out, they won't be interested in an on-line class.
4. Computer literate
5. Psychologically they likely are the more field-independent or thinking-introverted type
6. Also likely have strong locus of control -- want to know what's going on

My hypotheses are based on the fact that if one is very satisfied with their church, or doesn't care, they won't even be interested in learning this type of topics.


Also, we can find significant amounts of learner does not like the american style of evangelicalism.

[nkcwong]

個人認為，起碼要幾個月時間準備，因為需要許多方面配合﹕

（1） 課程設計
--「市面真的沒有同類的東西嗎？」
（2） 市場調查﹕
--學會的會員到底有多少願意參加？非會員有興趣參加嗎？、
（3） 推銷publicity
（4） 技術支援及配套 （audio/visual streaming capability, etc.)

相信（1） 及（2） 是目前最重要的。有了課程大綱以後（1），我們便可以做一點市場調查（2）--如做一些polls，看看會多少人有興趣參加。如果很少人有興趣的話，那麼會勞民傷財，計劃可能要延遲，或暫時擱置。那麼（3）及（4）也可能不必了。

當然，我個人很想見到(1)到(4) 都能順利完成。但是畢竟這是experimental，所以要有心理準備。

[mfchoi]

個人認為，起碼要幾個月時間準備，因為需要許多方面配合﹕

（1） 課程設計
--「市面真的沒有同類的東西嗎？」
（2） 市場調查﹕
--學會的會員到底有多少願意參加？非會員有興趣參加嗎？、
（3） 推銷publicity
（4） 技術支援及配套 （audio/visual streaming capability, etc.)

相信（1） 及（2） 是目前最重要的。有了課程大綱以後（1），我們便可以做一點市場調查（2）--如做一些polls，看看會多少人有興趣參加。如果很少人有興趣的話，那麼會勞民傷財，計劃可能要延遲，或暫時擱置。那麼（3）及（4）也可能不必了。

當然，我個人很想見到(1)到(4) 都能順利完成。但是畢竟這是experimental，所以要有心理準備。

其實幾位分別都提了一些要思考的問題。但似乎在要思考的問題之上，仍未有具體的共識──學生對象和課程內容兩個重心都有人提出。當然，二者都十分重要，而且關係也密切，而教學目標也是另一個進路。雖則起點不同，但終點卻可以是一樣的。但我想課程內容（大綱連同目標）是一個較容易的進路，我同意nkcwong的建議，可由此開始。學生對象，及其文化、背景等當然也十分重要，但這涉及各人背後不一定相同的理念，若朝此方向，可能會吃力不討好。

題外話：如果沒有記錯，好像有人曾經做過統計，單是課程（curriculum）一詞，定義就有好幾十個之多，可以是課程網要，也可以指學習的經驗，又或者是學習的成果。搞「課程」這東西，實在是非常煩人的！ :eek:

最後建議大家開始時不要太大野心，更不可心急；一輪商討之後，可先考慮做一個科目，試辦一下，看看反應如何，日後如仍然興趣未減，大可逐步加添。

[tkhwong2005]

In this way, we can have two steps approaches:

1) Short-term approach: organize series of courses that has teachers/facilitators willing to lead in specific areas related to courses that reflect the nature of this society.

2) After offering series courses, we should have a critical mass. At the same time, we develop more systematic approach of this learning project.

I think one of the key questions we are struggling: In what way that our courses unique than those offered online/distance education. In my personal observation, I think the unique nature of our courses:

1) It provides foundational courses of helping thinking Christians to think and to act with Christian perspective.
2) It provides forum of learning that learners can reflect their own perspectives with a Christian perspective(s). (I noticed even Christians have different perspective in certain aspects, but at least we can dialouge and inform some other perspectives hold by other Christian)
3)At last, if it is possible in the future, to develop the spirit of Christian scholar. (character formation)

I am dreaming of early stage of Regent College (School specific for thinking Christian)

[nkcwong]

You guys need to give me (us) some concrete topics or subjects that you plan to cover. Thus far, you folks have been talking in very general and abstract terms.

Please take no offense. I don't mean to be unsympathetic. It's just still not clear to me what you are up to.

[wonggk]

You guys need to give me (us) some concrete topics or subjects that you plan to cover. Thus far, you folks have been talking in very general and abstract terms.

Please take no offense. I don't mean to be unsympathetic. It's just still not clear to me what you are up to.
Good point. In fact I don't know if we are clear either.

Let me see if I can document and re-group some of our thoughts:

1. It appears from our previous discussion on church teaching, that many of us feel that churches today are very bad in teaching basic factual concepts to their members.

2. The weakest topics are in the areas of church history, philosophy and thoughts, basic systematic theology etc.

3. We feel that most churches do not have the resources to develop internal training materials for these topics.

4. It also appears that these topics happen to be strength of many people here.

5. So, it may be a valuable ministry if "we" (i.e. SHC) can develop some "packaged" teaching materials or courses on these topics and make them available to anyone interested.

6. Several people have expressed interest to work on such a project. Tony has agreed to be the coordinator.

I think that this is where we are so far. We have a long way to go. There are two fundamentally very opposite ways to approach this project:

(1) Try to build some "products" first, then see if anyone is interested in using them.
(2) First try to identify if there is a need for such "products", if yes, then start to build.

The other issues on design, technology etc. are really secondary.

So, let me post this question back to the group:

Are we confident enough that if we build a good "product", it will be used? Or do we want to start with a feasibility analysis?:confused:

[mfchoi]

......We have a long way to go. There are two fundamentally very opposite ways to approach this project:

(1) Try to build some "products" first, then see if anyone is interested in using them.
(2) First try to identify if there is a need for such "products", if yes, then start to build.

The other issues on design, technology etc. are really secondary.

So, let me post this question back to the group:

Are we confident enough that if we build a good "product", it will be used? Or do we want to start with a feasibility analysis?:confused:

多謝國棟兄幫助大家整理一下思路，頗認同前述6點的「現況」，但似乎餘下的問題不單是「用什麼方法（approach）做？」，或者「有否信心做（完有人用）？」也要考慮有「做什麼」（教材形式？內容？）和「怎樣做？」，否則又可能答不到「有否信心」和「用什麼方法」的問題。

似乎又再和大家dout圈子，其實我的意思是：製作教材的構想是很好的，但仍有不少問題大家要再花時間討論。不容易一下子就做到萬眾一心，故不可以太心急，因為我想至今大家還未有足夠的共識。我絕不是要打沉大家的興致，但到底一個「異象」不會是如此輕易一蹴即就的，是嗎？

落實一點，返回國棟兄最後的問題，我建議先做可行性分析，但可能在此之前還是要先選一個學科的題目，大家才容易去分析到底可不可行。

算是野人獻曝吧，我的建議的科目是：「基督教與聖經」。因大家似乎都認同在香港和北美的信徒，大都比較接近基要主義（這從來就是多數華人教會的傳統教導嘛！），我們可否編一個課程，讓信徒有機會反思一下這種傳統的聖經觀是否唯一的信仰基礎！這不必是很深奧的東西，但至少可以讓信徒（可能也包括非信徒）有機會較系統的整理一下自己基要主義式的聖經觀，看看相關的歷史、神學的發展，讓他們有機會拓寬視野，也有機會去重整自己的信仰內容。

我並不相信這是最好的建議，歡迎提供意見、修改、批判。（相信大家仍在起步之初，不同的觀點總是正常不過的。只希望拋出一個具體一點的意念，讓大家想一下。）

[nkcwong]

tkhwong2005 (http://www.christianroundtable.org/forum/member.php?u=21) http://www.christianroundtable.org/forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_6909", true);
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfchoi
多謝國棟兄幫助大家整理一下思路，頗認同前述6點的「現況」，但似乎餘下的問題不單是「用什麼方法（app roach）做？」，或者「有否信心做（完有人用）？」也要考慮有「做什麼」（教材形式？內容？）和「怎樣 做？」，否則又可能答不到「有否信心」和「用什麼方法」的問題。

似乎又再和大家dout圈子，其實我的意思是：製作教材的構想是很好的，但仍有不少問題大家要再花時間討論 。不容易一下子就做到萬眾一心，故不可以太心急，因為我想至今大家還未有足夠的共識。我絕不是要打沉大家的 興致，但到底一個「異象」不會是如此輕易一蹴即就的，是嗎？

落實一點，返回國棟兄最後的問題，我建議先做可行性分析，但可能在此之前還是要先選一個學科的題目，大家才 容易去分析到底可不可行。

算是野人獻曝吧，我的建議的科目是：「基督教與聖經」。因大家似乎都認同在香港和北美的信徒，大都比較接近 基要主義（這從來就是多數華人教會的傳統教導嘛！），我們可否編一個課程，讓信徒有機會反思一下這種傳統的 聖經觀是否唯一的信仰基礎！這不必是很深奧的東西，但至少可以讓信徒（可能也包括非信徒）有機會較系統的整 理一下自己基要主義式的聖經觀，看看相關的歷史、神學的發展，讓他們有機會拓寬視野，也有機會去重整自己的 信仰內容。

我並不相信這是最好的建議，歡迎提供意見、修改、批判。（相信大家仍在起步之初，不同的觀點總是正常不過的 。只希望拋出一個具體一點的意念，讓大家想一下。）



Thank you Henry and Gordon! I think that we can start few courses as testing water. At the same time, we can also using this grace period to figure out the needs of our learners.

I think we can offer few courses, within this year:

1) Christianity and Bible (Herny's idea)
2) Formation of Christian theology (More like a historical investiagtion of Christian belief, how's the development and implication to Christian life)
3) Christian worldview (It can a foundational course that view Christian theology and a worldview and see its implication)
4)Church Education: Oppressive or liberated (it generates out from the current discussion, also helping believers to see the alternative ways of view Church education (From both pastoral/lay perspective)

During that time, we can start develop our long-term curriculum, Particularly, we can do some analytical studies of our potential learners:

1)Who are they?
2)What are they looking for as an alternative learning opportunity?
3)What is the uniqueness than other curriculum / school that can find in the market?
4) Are we publishing curriculum and given to the church to us or are we becoming a teaching institute of provide learning opportunity of these course?

I think it is enough for us to talk about these questions within few months.

I hope that you can see this as short-term and long-term approaches working together.

What is your opinion? I am looking forward your thought http://www.christianroundtable.org/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

P.S.: I am moving to new apartment today and tomorrow, therefore, I will be slow to responeses until coming monday. So, please go ahead of the discussion, and I will catch up. http://www.christianroundtable.org/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[clement]

I think we can offer few courses, within this year:

1) Christianity and Bible (Herny's idea)
2) Formation of Christian theology (More like a historical investiagtion of Christian belief, how's the development and implication to Christian life)
3) Christian worldview (It can a foundational course that view Christian theology and a worldview and see its implication)
4)Church Education: Oppressive or liberated (it generates out from the current discussion, also helping believers to see the alternative ways of view Church education (From both pastoral/lay perspective)



Concerning point three, is there only one Christian worldview or are there multiple Christian worldviews?

Concerning point two, we have books like Cambridge or Oxford History of Christianity. But how plain historical data be meaningful to the living believers?

[nkcwong]

Just to let you guys know that I have implemented the capability to play audiovisual streaming media on this site.

So it wouldn't be a problem should you guys decide to incorporate audio/visual materials into your course.

(There is a lot more we can do now with this site other than posting messages. Use your imagination!)

[tkhwong2005]

Just to let you guys know that I have implemented the capability to play audiovisual streaming media on this site.

So it wouldn't be a problem should you guys decide to incorporate audio/visual materials into your course.

(There is a lot more we can do now with this site other than posting messages. Use your imagination!)

Thanks alot! :)

[tkhwong2005]

Concerning point three, is there only one Christian worldview or are there multiple Christian worldviews?

Concerning point two, we have books like Cambridge or Oxford History of Christianity. But how plain historical data be meaningful to the living believers?

Concerning point three: We can introduce one Christian worldview at a time or comparative study of Christian worldview...either one can work well.

Concerning point two, It is not just the fact of history, but seeing how the believers in the pass struggle to express their faith in their historical context, we reflect and learn how we are expressing our faith in our historical context. :)

[mfchoi]

Concerning point two, It is not just the fact of history, but seeing how the believers in the pass struggle to express their faith in their historical context, we reflect and learn how we are expressing our faith in our historical context. :)

同意, 歷史從來不單是事實的描述, 當中無可避免加進了作者的詮釋, "好"的教會歷史書不少,但重要的是在不同的詮釋中找到自己的定位. 亦是因此之故, 即使有了很好的standard text , 還需要有導師指導學員去尋找自己的詮釋. (亦因此之故, 由不同的人一同做這類課程並不容易(因為不同的信念), 但這很可能又會是大家很難得的交流機會!

[Daniel_Cheung]

但重要的是在不同的詮釋中找到自己的定位. 亦是因此之故, 即使有了很好的standard text , 還需要有導師指導學員去尋找自己的詮釋. (亦因此之故, 由不同的人一同做這類課程並不容易(因為不同的信念), 但這很可能又會是大家很難得的交流機會!

I have two comments:
1. You may want to think why we need an online course instead of a book.
2. In choosing a topic, you may want to make sure that we do have people who are knowledgeable in that area.

[tkhwong2005]

I have two comments:
1. You may want to think why we need an online course instead of a book.
2. In choosing a topic, you may want to make sure that we do have people who are knowledgeable in that area.

Two replies:

1) Except you are trained or mastered on self-reflective critical thinking and reading, it takes time and affirmation of helping another adults to reflect and reformulate one's thoughts and value. It is a very scary process for adult learners because it is full of uncertanity in their decision processing and making in certain issue. A course with careful design, can help adult learners evaluate their position and reformulate one's position in a safe environment.

2) I agree that we need facilitators/instructors who are capable to teach such courses. Personally, I can teach (4) around August this year. The other courses, if someone want to try, let me know. Also, if you have course material ready to teach and you are willing to teach in this year, let me know as well.

:D

[clement]

I have two comments:
1. You may want to think why we need an online course instead of a book.
2. In choosing a topic, you may want to make sure that we do have people who are knowledgeable in that area.


也是，你們既然划得起幾千塊錢，買短暫的廣告，那麼大概也划得起錢，去出版刊物，可能接觸面更廣。當然兩項工作並不相互排斥，甚至可以一併進行。

[Daniel_Cheung]

也是，你們既然划得起幾千塊錢，買短暫的廣告，那麼大概也划得起錢，去出版刊物，可能接觸面更廣。當然兩項工作並不相互排斥，甚至可以一併進行。

你記錯了，那次的廣告不足一千元的。

[clement]

你記錯了，那次的廣告不足一千元的。

not around $2800 ?

[Daniel_Cheung]

not around $2800 ?

因為後來決定用一個較小的面積，好像是花了$980。:)

[tkhwong2005]

也是，你們既然划得起幾千塊錢，買短暫的廣告，那麼大概也划得起錢，去出版刊物，可能接觸面更廣。當然兩項工作並不相互排斥，甚至可以一併進行。

Let's not talk about the issue of money at this moment. I think your idea is good, but it involves more human resources that we need at this point. However, I think we can keep in mind as the human resources grow bigger and stronger :)

[mfchoi]

I have two comments:
1. You may want to think why we need an online course instead of a book.
2. In choosing a topic, you may want to make sure that we do have people who are knowledgeable in that area.

Thanks to your reminder, my response is :

1. A good book can always help, but cannot provide much, if any, interaction between author and readers. One may have a lot of questions and challenges when facing something new to his belief. Some personal guidance must be helpful.

2. Yes, it is very important. That is why we need some more discussion to select some topics among those suggested.

[tkhwong2005]

Thanks to your reminder, my response is :

1. A good book can always help, but cannot provide much, if any, interaction between author and readers. One may have a lot of questions and challenges when facing something new to his belief. Some personal guidance must be helpful.

2. Yes, it is very important. That is why we need some more discussion to select some topics among those suggested.

My respones:

1) I agree with point (1)
2) As I said, what kind of topics are ready to be taught. If you have any course you would like to teach, please let me know. :)

[tkhwong2005]

Sorry for late reply (It was due to the busyness of my pastoral ministry and my installation service).

It seems that it becomes quiet in the discussion of this issue...I will share more thought in the later period of time... :)

[nkcwong]

Sorry for late reply (It was due to the busyness of my pastoral ministry and my installation service).

It seems that it becomes quiet in the discussion of this issue...I will share more thought in the later period of time... :)

Congratulations, Rev. Wong!

I'm also working on an applied ethics class as well. I'm planning to incorporate audio materials at least into the the course. I can't make any promise, though, about when it's going to be ready. There are so many issues that need to be worked out--bandwidth, copyright protection, etc.

[tkhwong2005]

Congratulations, Rev. Wong!

I'm also working on an applied ethics class as well. I'm planning to incorporate audio materials at least into the the course. I can't make any promise, though, about when it's going to be ready. There are so many issues that need to be worked out--bandwidth, copyright protection, etc.

Thanks, I just want to clarify that I was install as a pastor of a church. I am not ordained as Rev. yet. Still thanks for your greetings. :D

That's ok...I think we can take times to get ready. I am rather things are getting prepare in a good form than rushing all others stuff with low qualities.

I will post more thoughts and plan within this week. :)

[clement]

Thanks to your reminder, my response is :

1. A good book can always help, but cannot provide much, if any, interaction between author and readers. One may have a lot of questions and challenges when facing something new to his belief. Some personal guidance must be helpful.

2. Yes, it is very important. That is why we need some more discussion to select some topics among those suggested.

Actually, some authors would post the entire contents of their book online, and welcome any discussions. At the same time, they published a printed version as well (and earn money only through this). Then the results of the interaction between the readers and the authors are incorporated into the revision of the same book... Some people may find that in this way the book could be even more profitable than not putting the contents online at all.... Well, this is just one of the options, not even really the best way, but just my two cents.

[mfchoi]

Actually, some authors would post the entire contents of their book online, and welcome any discussions. At the same time, they published a printed version as well (and earn money only through this). Then the results of the interaction between the readers and the authors are incorporated into the revision of the same book... Some people may find that in this way the book could be even more profitable than not putting the contents online at all.... Well, this is just one of the options, not even really the best way, but just my two cents.

Yes, I myself have come across some "books" on the web, and I believe it is a way to revise the draft of a master piece.

But if we are talking about a learning course, I'd suggest there should be more guidelines and the "teaching" (or learning) can be carefully designed. There could be, for example, some preset schedule for discussion, some guiding questions to motivate the discussion, some learning tasks, and learners may even be assigned different roles in a more collaborative way of learning. These cannot be easily done in a "book", no matter what format it is.

Of course, doing a course in this way, there will be much more effort required. For many cases, but not all, a good book is good enough.

[tkhwong2005]

Yes, I myself have come across some "books" on the web, and I believe it is a way to revise the draft of a master piece.

But if we are talking about a learning course, I'd suggest there should be more guidelines and the "teaching" (or learning) can be carefully designed. There could be, for example, some preset schedule for discussion, some guiding questions to motivate the discussion, some learning tasks, and learners may even be assigned different roles in a more collaborative way of learning. These cannot be easily done in a "book", no matter what format it is.

Of course, doing a course in this way, there will be much more effort required. For many cases, but not all, a good book is good enough.


Firstly, I agree what you said.

Secondly, I think a good book with some form of guidance, such as self-direct learning materials, will be most helpful for learners.

Recently, I came across a website:

http://www.accessed.org/index.php

ACCESS is a fellowship that formed by many online/distance education institutions of Christian university, college and seminary that provide non-traditional learning environment. There are some valuable information of how to set up non-traditional Christian education program. I will download the article and read it before I do long-term planning. (Of course, I will keep develop short-term teaching/learning project within few weeks). If you are interested, you can download it:

http://www.accessed.org/index.php?id=19

Plus, we can register as individual ($50 US/year)or institution ($100 US/year) members. I am thinking register as individual member...anyway, I will see any resources of this organization can help us to develop a learning courses.

:D

[Daniel_Cheung]

今天第二次跑到新成立的華人教會參加崇拜，講章題目大約是殷勤長進，那位身為大學教授的講員說了以下的東西（大意）：

加爾文是十分殷勤的，所以成功地由牧師變成日內瓦社會福利工作的官員，把基督教理想成功地實踐出來。又因他的殷勤，他成為宗教改革最有影響力的領袖，成就遠勝於慈運理和馬丁路德。

雖然我不懂很多歷史，但這幾點都很有問題。　:ani_banghead:

[charlie]

董建華都是成功的香港特首. Xd

[nkcwong]

今天第二次跑到新成立的華人教會參加崇拜，講章題目大約是殷勤長進，那位身為大學教授的講員說了以下的東西（大意）：

加爾文是十分殷勤的，所以成功地由牧師變成日內瓦社會福利工作的官員，把基督教理想成功地實踐出來。又因他的殷勤，他成為宗教改革最有影響力的領袖，成就遠勝於慈運理和馬丁路德。

雖然我不懂很多歷史，但這幾點都很有問題。　:ani_banghead:

在北美華人教會多呆一D，你會更多 :ani_banghead: :ani_banghead: :ani_banghead: :ani_banghead: :ani_banghead:

:haha:

[Daniel_Cheung]

今天第二次跑到新成立的華人教會參加崇拜，講章題目大約是殷勤長進，那位身為大學教授的講員說了以下的東西（大意）：

加爾文是十分殷勤的，所以成功地由牧師變成日內瓦社會福利工作的官員，把基督教理想成功地實踐出來。又因他的殷勤，他成為宗教改革最有影響力的領袖，成就遠勝於慈運理和馬丁路德。

雖然我不懂很多歷史，但這幾點都很有問題。　:ani_banghead:
看看如何。上次那講員較年輕，是別處的博士生，他從別人那裡聽到我不贊成他的看法，他都願意見面談一談。

[Michael]

看看如何。上次那講員較年輕，是別處的博士生，他從別人那裡聽到我不贊成他的看法，他都願意見面談一談。

我相信那位「講員」，連基本的教會歷史也沒有預備好！

若果他是在神學院裡上講道學，保證一定肥佬！

[Daniel_Cheung]

我相信那位「講員」，連基本的教會歷史也沒有預備好！

若果他是在神學院裡上講道學，保證一定肥佬！

噢，我沒有交代清楚。要更正一下，我提過兩個講員，老的那個是教授，說加爾文的那位，年輕的那位是博士生，有興趣問我對他講章的意見。

有關前者，我恐怕他真的井底之蛙，竟說路德遠不及加爾文。唉，教會的知識層面封閉了，人們就會識少少扮代表。

[wonggk]

噢，我沒有交代清楚。要更正一下，我提過兩個講員，老的那個是教授，說加爾文的那位，年輕的那位是博士生，有興趣問我對他講章的意見。

有關前者，我恐怕他真的井底之蛙，竟說路德遠不及加爾文。唉，教會的知識層面封閉了，人們就會識少少扮代表。
對老人家，有時候我們是很無耐的。他們未必是「扮」代表，而是真的不知道有外面的看法。當然，如果是大學教授，對他們有高一點的要求是合理的。

[tkhwong2005]

Well...It might be a time for us to focus on the online course... I don't think we want to see this picture again...right :D

I think what I am going to do in this year are the following:

1)Set up some tentive course for test run on Sept 2006.
2)Discuss with some members of this forum to launch a courses on their experties
3)Setting mid-range and long-range goals for the possibilities of setting some basic curriculum of this learning courses...

I will update you a little bit more. Plus, if you have any comments, please let me know.

[clement]

噢，我沒有交代清楚。要更正一下，我提過兩個講員，老的那個是教授，說加爾文的那位，年輕的那位是博士生，有興趣問我對他講章的意見。

有關前者，我恐怕他真的井底之蛙，竟說路德遠不及加爾文。唉，教會的知識層面封閉了，人們就會識少少扮代表。

對於加爾文派來說，路德的確不夠徹底，而且仍然比較同情公教。而且對於加爾文主義來說，路德除了是奠基人之一外，就未必是拱頂石。尤其是預定論和政教關係，分歧都比較大。

不過，當然，宏觀地看，宗教改革運動，並非僅僅以加爾文為代表。儘管加爾文的影響的確很大，甚至可能有人因而高舉加爾文貶低其他改教家也說不定呢。

[nkcwong]

今天第二次跑到新成立的華人教會參加崇拜，講章題目大約是殷勤長進，那位身為大學教授的講員說了以下的東西（大意）：

加爾文是十分殷勤的，所以成功地由牧師變成日內瓦社會福利工作的官員，把基督教理想成功地實踐出來。又因他的殷勤，他成為宗教改革最有影響力的領袖，成就遠勝於慈運理和馬丁路德。

雖然我不懂很多歷史，但這幾點都很有問題。　:ani_banghead:
Sometimes, I can't help feeling that what we are doing here is a mission impossible. 比愚公移山還要困難 。:teardrop:

[Daniel_Cheung]

對於加爾文派來說，路德的確不夠徹底，而且仍然比較同情公教。而且對於加爾文主義來說，路德除了是奠基人之一外，就未必是拱頂石。尤其是預定論和政教關係，分歧都比較大。

不過，當然，宏觀地看，宗教改革運動，並非僅僅以加爾文為代表。儘管加爾文的影響的確很大，甚至可能有人因而高舉加爾文貶低其他改教家也說不定呢。

我不太清楚，路德宗和信義宗的人數和影響力會少於改革宗嗎？另外，即使在改革宗裡，也有荷蘭那一源流的改革宗，現亦見於美國北部、加拿大等地，在學術界的力量不少的啊！他們與現今在美國很有氣勢的改革宗在很多事上的看法都不相似。例如荷蘭改革宗就不會那麼緊張要跟人辯論預定論，也沒有筆是大遲講的牛仔式心理。我懷疑那講員只是講美國那些，因為他只懂引用唐崇榮牧師的話。Anyway，只是有感而發，作為一個讀書人，始終對一些看來沒有根據但因為講得多就成為事實的講法，比較敏感，有點唏噓。

[Daniel_Cheung]

Sometimes, I can't help feeling that what we are doing here is a mission impossible. 比愚公移山還要困難 。:teardrop:

喔，不要叫人生太沉重。

[clement]

今天第二次跑到新成立的華人教會參加崇拜，講章題目大約是殷勤長進，那位身為大學教授的講員說了以下的東西（大意）：

加爾文是十分殷勤的，所以成功地由牧師變成日內瓦社會福利工作的官員，把基督教理想成功地實踐出來。又因他的殷勤，他成為宗教改革最有影響力的領袖，成就遠勝於慈運理和馬丁路德。

雖然我不懂很多歷史，但這幾點都很有問題。　:ani_banghead:

介紹他看這本書，有國內插圖漫畫版

《異端的權利－－蒼蠅撼大象的戰爭》（The Right to Heresy or How John Calvin Killed A Conscience）， 有些版本叫做《異端的權利－－卡斯特利奧反對加爾文》（The Right to Heresy, Castellio against Calvin），

English:
http://www.gospeltruth.net/heresy/heresy_toc.htm

Chinese (in simplified Chinese):
http://www1.sarawak.com.my/org/hornbill/wr/stefan/stefan/index.htm

http://images.dangdang.com/images/8943085_b.jpg
http://www.law-lib.com/shopping/images/10705.jpg

[clement]

我不太清楚，路德宗和信義宗的人數和影響力會少於改革宗嗎？

另外，即使在改革宗裡，也有荷蘭那一源流的改革宗，現亦見於美國北部、加拿大等地，在學術界的力量不少的啊！他們與現今在美國很有氣勢的改革宗在很多事上的看法都不相似。例如荷蘭改革宗就不會那麼緊張要跟人辯論預定論，也沒有筆是大遲講的牛仔式心理。我懷疑那講員只是講美國那些，因為他只懂引用唐崇榮牧師的話。Anyway，只是有感而發，作為一個讀書人，始終對一些看來沒有根據但因為講得多就成為事實的講法，比較敏感，有點唏噓。

對於第一個問題，我並無具體數據可以回應。

哈，很好，佩服佩服！你竟然留意到荷蘭的改革宗。不錯，荷蘭具有自由開放的風氣，是人文薈萃之地，富有文化特質，產生了許多著名人物，例如伊拉斯謨（Desiderius Erasmus），斯賓諾沙（Baruch Spinoza）與梵谷（Vincent van Gogh）。荷蘭也產生了門諾會，重視和平。

荷蘭也有（A. Kuyper）創立的「自由改革宗教會」，鼓吹「新加爾文主義」，主張結合神學與各種學科研究。因此，雖然同樣是加爾文宗，但由於處境獨特，具備改革、自由、容忍、人文、創意等素質。原來在荷蘭，加爾文可以被解讀為宗教家，強調上帝，也可以解讀為人文主義者，追求人的自由。

當中不是沒有各種衝突的，例如自由與傳統之間，開放與保守之間，他們在於當時的自由派看來，仍是保守，他們在當時的保守派看來，卻過於開放。

[clement]

對於第一個問題，我並無具體數據可以回應。

哈，很好，佩服佩服！你竟然留意到荷蘭的改革宗。


讓我ACKNOWLEDGE SOURCE，我是看台灣神學院院長林鴻信關於改革宗的某些著作來認識一點關於荷蘭的事情的。